quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
It's pretty telling that you say a trip to the Vatican for Christians doesn't represent Protestants. You're Jesus Loves Me, But Hates You view of Christianity is just plain wrong, Bill.

Hi Crusty,

I do believe even our Roman Catholic Friends will agree that the Vatican is not a typical tourist stop for Protestants. Nothing against our Roman Catholic Friends; it is just that Protestants do not consider any earthly place to be the holy center of our faith. For that, we look straight up.

But, good try, Crusty. I bet you even try to get couples you know arguing with one another. Kind of a kick for you, right? Seeing what kind of argument you can stir up.

But, once again, I will say that we Protestants do not need "game show religion" as Skeptik and this article he presents is trying to imply.

By the way, Crusty, you really should visit a Christian church just one before you die. It would be a shame if the first time you visit a Christian church -- is when six guys are carrying you. Just a thought!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Well, Bill, your ignorance is showing. You will find on any given day thousands of Protestant and non-Christian people visiting the Vatican, and even paying money to take tours of the Vatican and its immense art collection (4.2 million people per year). St. Peters is open for anyone to pray. It's your loss if you ever had the opportunity, and didn't go.

No, Bill, I'm not the one who tries to convert non-Fundamentalist Christians to your brand of hate filled religion - that is you, my friend. You are the one who tells other Christians that their path is incorrect.

Bill, I have been in many Christian Churches. Lately only to celebrate weddings or deaths, or if there is something particularly interesting int he history, art or architecture of the church itself. But I grew up in the Presbyterian Church - yes, I know, one of those Liberal Churches you hate so much - and were I in need of a bureaucracy through which to commune with God, I would return there.

Shame on you, Bill. How do you call yourself a Christian?

Have a blissed day.

Oh no, Crusty, I grew up in a Presbyterian church too, no wonder we're so screwed up! LOL.

I never got any thing out of that church.

Hi Crusty,

Yes, conservative Christians will visit the Vatican; just as we would visit a museum or an art gallery -- for the man-made artwork and beauty.

However, for spiritual guidance and strength -- the Vatican is not the place for a Protestant; at least, not a conservative Protestant.

LMM, you say, "I never got any thing out of that church" -- meaning the Presbyterian. Possibly, that is because the Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc., building is not the church. Nor is the Vatican. The church is the body of believers -- all Christian believers.

And, we can be found in many types and sizes of church buildings -- from giant cathedrals to small one room churches to private homes. It does not matter where we meet -- it only matters Who we meet.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah: Bill, I don't worship the place. It's cool to visit, especially if you like art. If you choose to visit, it's a few thousand bucks and a passport. If you don't, don't.

World religion game show? With all the reality TV crapola on the tube these days, you should've figured it would happen eventually. Wife Swap? Give me a break.

As far as cathedrals go? Men built them to honor God. The Crystal Cathedral? I've been to the Christmas pageant. It's great.

You may assume whatever you will about the motivations people may have for building these impressive edifices. Frankly, I'll take people at their word, or just enjoy them for the art. God can look into people's hearts; not you and certainly not me.

Hi Zip,

Yes, I am very familiar with the Crystal Cathedral. I attended there in the early 1970s and was there on the day they had their very first television broadcast. If you could ever see that very first tape; look at the back left side of the church -- and you might find a tall, blonde fellow -- me. In those days, it was called the Garden Grove Community Church.

I was there when the planning and building of the Cathedral was done. I was there for the ground breaking ceremony with Henry Fonda as guest of honor. And, I still feel it is a cathedral built to honor a man -- instead of God.

I always like to compare the ministries of Robert Schuller and Chuck Smith. Both started a church in Orange County around 1965. In 1965, Schuller started preaching from the roof of a drive-in theater snack bar -- and has built one massive cathedral -- with one, maybe two other churches growing from the first.

Chuck Smith began Calvary Chapel with about twenty members in 1965. Today, there are many, many thousands of Calvary Chapels all over America and in many other countries; especially Europe and Britain. Many Calvary Chapels are large enough to be classified as mega churches. I do not know the number; but I would guesstimate that millions have come to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ through the Calvary Chapel Movement -- around the world.

These two represent the two polar views of Christianity: Schuller, being of the Reform Church embraces the Calvinist views -- and I never heard an altar call in any of his services. Chuck Smith embraces the evangelical view that we all were given marching orders to Go, Make Disciples, Teach Them, Baptize Them (Matthew 28:18-20) and to be His witnesses in all the world (Acts 1:8). I have heard many, many altar calls in Calvary Chapel churches.

How would I compare the two? Robert Schuller courts celebrities; Chuck Smith courts those who need to be saved.

Personally, I would rather be on Chuck Smith's team.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Well, Bill, your ignorance is showing. You will find on any given day thousands of Protestant and non-Christian people visiting the Vatican, and even paying money to take tours of the Vatican and its immense art collection

Absolutely.

When I walked through those big doors into the Basilica, there was huge sunbeam stretching from a window high in the dome down towards the golden papal throne. It was the most beautiful sight I have ever seen. I swore that must be what heaven looked like. I think I shed a tear.

No one, NO ONE goes to Roma without a trip to St. Basilica's Peter and the Sistine Chapel. As usual, the Bloviator speaks with blinding ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Crusty,

Yes, conservative Christians will visit the Vatican; just as we would visit a museum or an art gallery -- for the man-made artwork and beauty.

However, for spiritual guidance and strength -- the Vatican is not the place for a Protestant; at least, not a conservative Protestant.

LMM, you say, "I never got any thing out of that church" -- meaning the Presbyterian. Possibly, that is because the Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc., building is not the church. Nor is the Vatican. The church is the body of believers -- all Christian believers.

And, we can be found in many types and sizes of church buildings -- from giant cathedrals to small one room churches to private homes. It does not matter where we meet -- it only matters Who we meet.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Good back-peddle, Bill. So you are saying that were you to enter St. Peter's, you wouldn't be able to find Jesus Christ there? That God's presence is absent, and that non-Christians wouldn't be welcome to find him there?

First you try to ridicule me because I don't feel the need to darken the doors of a church, then you say the building isn't important. Your inconsistencies are glaring.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CrustyMac,

quote:

Originally posted by Cookey:
Link

"ISTANBUL (Reuters) – What happens when you put a Muslim imam, a Christian priest, a rabbi and a Buddhist monk in a room with 10 atheists?

Turkish television station Kanal T hopes the answer is a ratings success as it prepares to launch a gameshow where spiritual guides from the four faiths will seek to convert a group of non-believers.

The prize for converts will be a pilgrimage to a holy site of their chosen religion -- Mecca for Muslims, the Vatican for Christians, Jerusalem for Jews and Tibet for Buddhists."

The article doesn't say what the atheists get for remaining unfaithful other than a life of reason, philosophical morality and a deeper appreciation of THIS life,

Cookie, I'd like to see the presentation of "evidence" to persuade these marks from each of the clergymen. Do you think it will ever be on youtube or pay-per-view?

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Cookey:
When I walked through those big doors into the Basilica, there was huge sunbeam stretching from a window high in the dome down towards the golden papal throne. It was the most beautiful sight I have ever seen. I swore that must be what heaven looked like. I think I shed a tear.

Wow, Skeptik,

I am happy to hear that you believe in heaven now. Now that you believe in heaven -- do you still plan to choose hell? If you do, you will shed more than a tear.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Cookey:
When I walked through those big doors into the Basilica, there was huge sunbeam stretching from a window high in the dome down towards the golden papal throne. It was the most beautiful sight I have ever seen. I swore that must be what heaven looked like. I think I shed a tear.

Wow, Skeptik,

I am happy to hear that you believe in heaven now. Now that you believe in heaven -- do you still plan to choose hell? If you do, you will shed more than a tear.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

If I were a betting man, I'd bet the ranch that Cookey gets to heaven way before you, Bill. Do you ever listen to yourself, or even look in the mirror?

Personally, Crusty, I'm kinda hoping Cookey takes quite a while before making the trip.

Cookey can take as long as he likes, and he'll still beat Bill. He has an eternity.

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
If I were a betting man, I'd bet the ranch that Cookey gets to heaven way before you, Bill.

I am a betting man and I bet my eternal soul that we get there at the exact same time.

quote:

Originally posted by Cookey:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
If I were a betting man, I'd bet the ranch that Cookey gets to heaven way before you, Bill.

I am a betting man and I bet my eternal soul that we get there at the exact same time.

Hi Skeptik,

I do believe you have all of us confused. You deny that God exists; you deny everything about God. And, yet, you want to spend eternity in heaven -- with God.

Are you feeling a touch of schizophrenia today?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill