Is it for real, read what some people have said, and there is a lot of them giving their views on it, RE: http://www.nderf.org/site_index.htm

Hi Blue,

I will give you the Bible's position on the issue of near-death experiences. They are just that -- NEAR death, not death. A person may be near death; but, that does not mean that he has actually died.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."

So, regardless of what the person may have experienced in the state of trauma -- he did not die.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Simply driving down Woodward Avenue borderlines on a near-death-experience.......

quote:

Originally posted by JoeMerchant:
Simply driving down Woodward Avenue borderlines on a near-death-experience.......

Hi Joe,

I agree completely -- stay with the evidence. And, if the person is living and breathing today -- that is evidence that this person never died.

Hebrews 9:27 only supports that evidence.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

So, if that's the case, then Lazarus really wasn't dead when Jesus reanimated him, then.

Gotta love it, Bill. Regardless of the preponderance of scientific evidence, witness testimonies, and personal observations; if a phenomenon is not explicitely defined in the Bible, you simply deny its existence.

I'm sure you'll love Dan Brown's new book.

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah: So, if that's the case, then Lazarus really wasn't dead when Jesus reanimated him, then.

Gotta love it, Bill. Regardless of the preponderance of scientific evidence, witness testimonies, and personal observations; if a phenomenon is not explicitly defined in the Bible, you simply deny its existence. I'm sure you'll love Dan Brown's new book.

Hi Zip,

First, I would not even use any of Dan Brown's books in my outhouse. The Sears catalog is much less grating.

Second, when we speak of Lazarus, we are speaking of a special miracle performed by Jesus Christ -- as His way of teaching His disciples. If you recall, in those days there was no Bible; so God used prophets and miracles to share His revelations and teachings with people.

Today, we have the Bible and do not need prophets and miracles such as Lazarus -- even though we do see His miracles of healing performed very often. Just not as obvious.

I have no doubt that had you been there -- His raising Lazarus would have made a real believer of you. Yet, today you will laugh when I tell you that I saw Him heal my friend, Lolita, who was terminally ill with cancer and given only weeks or months to live. She lived another seven very productive years.

Face it, Zip, if I said the sky is blue -- you would say it is green. I do think you may have spent too much time with old Deep -- and not enough time in your Bible. Tell me what Hebrews 9:27 means -- if not that man is destined to die ONCE, and then, judgment.

Zip, whether you believe it or not; I am not your enemy. You say you are a Christian believer. If so, that makes you and me brothers in Christ. Should you be throwing rocks at every statement I write? Or, should you be supporting me when I share with folks the messages found in the Bible? Just a thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

My objection against you has always been your scathing attacks on people who have legitimate questions about religion. You receive expressions of curiousity, yet return condemnation. Only your interpretation of the bible is the correct one. Anyone who questions a single jot or tittle in the bible has an express elevator ride to the infernal regions. You are an abysmal witness to the lost and seeking unless they come to you as supplicants. If they come saying, "what about this?", your response is, "you're going straight to hell."

I have significant, relevant, and documented doubts about the historicity of the bible. As I've said before, it is a document full of evidence of itself, which, in any rational argument, is completely worthless. You say the bible was compiled by "inspired men", yet you can't name them or provide any evidence documenting their inspiration. My claim is they were driven by a political agende, supporting a government that used religion as a whip over the masses.

Among others, Jefferson warned about taking the bible literally. As a source of metaphorical guidance, it is good. As an expression of the example of the life of Christ, it's excellent. But your position is that the bible came straight from the mouth of God, through an anonymous collection of editors, and onto the pages of the KJV you can pick up in a bookstore. The last such sort to make such a claim was Joseph Smith, and he wound up dead, fleeing a treason arrest, in the Carthage jail.

Your interpretation of the bible? I simply believe you're wrong, that's it in a nutshell. The bible is NOT to be taken as full of literal truths. It is guidance and one of the manifestations of God in this universe; yet you seem to use it as a club. "Believe as I do or suffer the fires of hell." Perhaps Jesus would not have touched the eyes of someone like Deep Fat to heal his blindness, but since you're not Jewish, He would have ignored you as well. You spew hatred and call it "the Love of God" is what may be the most egregious case of Orwellian doublespeak I've run across in a while. While my beliefs are likely irrelevant to you, I personally believe God is more INCLUSIVE than He is EXCLUSIVE. "In my house there are many mansions" may have other, alternate meanings that I doubt you could comprehend. You are stuck in a mental rut, surrounded by sycophants, and despise having your wisdom challenged.

So, sure. I'll keep tossing rocks. And the sky starts grey, pink, then salmon, turns cerulean, and goes back to vivid reds with, some say, a flash of green at sunset. Yet you see only blue. Curious, but not wholly unexpected.

The US Air Force has actually done studies on pilots who black out pulling too many Gs in maneuvers.

They report exactly the same types of "experiences" as these near-deathers. Conclusion: when the brain is robbed of oxygen - as happens in "near death experiences" - humans tend to have similar hallucinations.

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
My objection against you has always been your scathing attacks on people who have legitimate questions about religion. You receive expressions of curiousity, yet return condemnation. Only your interpretation of the bible is the correct one. Anyone who questions a single jot or tittle in the bible has an express elevator ride to the infernal regions. You are an abysmal witness to the lost and seeking unless they come to you as supplicants. If they come saying, "what about this?", your response is, "you're going straight to hell."

I have significant, relevant, and documented doubts about the historicity of the bible. As I've said before, it is a document full of evidence of itself, which, in any rational argument, is completely worthless. You say the bible was compiled by "inspired men", yet you can't name them or provide any evidence documenting their inspiration. My claim is they were driven by a political agende, supporting a government that used religion as a whip over the masses.

Among others, Jefferson warned about taking the bible literally. As a source of metaphorical guidance, it is good. As an expression of the example of the life of Christ, it's excellent. But your position is that the bible came straight from the mouth of God, through an anonymous collection of editors, and onto the pages of the KJV you can pick up in a bookstore. The last such sort to make such a claim was Joseph Smith, and he wound up dead, fleeing a treason arrest, in the Carthage jail.

Your interpretation of the bible? I simply believe you're wrong, that's it in a nutshell. The bible is NOT to be taken as full of literal truths. It is guidance and one of the manifestations of God in this universe; yet you seem to use it as a club. "Believe as I do or suffer the fires of hell." Perhaps Jesus would not have touched the eyes of someone like Deep Fat to heal his blindness, but since you're not Jewish, He would have ignored you as well. You spew hatred and call it "the Love of God" is what may be the most egregious case of Orwellian doublespeak I've run across in a while. While my beliefs are likely irrelevant to you, I personally believe God is more INCLUSIVE than He is EXCLUSIVE. "In my house there are many mansions" may have other, alternate meanings that I doubt you could comprehend. You are stuck in a mental rut, surrounded by sycophants, and despise having your wisdom challenged.

So, sure. I'll keep tossing rocks. And the sky starts grey, pink, then salmon, turns cerulean, and goes back to vivid reds with, some say, a flash of green at sunset. Yet you see only blue. Curious, but not wholly unexpected.

The green flash is definitely real. I and many others I know have seen it many times. You do need have an exceptionally clear day and to be watching a sunset over deep ocean water though.

quote:

Originally posted by blue's:
Is it for real, read what some people have said....

If I may weigh in on this topic…

There are several issues that one should consider when looking at the topic of NDE’s.

Anecdotal evidence is simply not reliable. There is no control upon which to measure the evidence.

We have a tendency to believe that which we want to believe. The more important the issue, the greater the tendency is to do just that. It is only natural.

There is a self-hypnotic element to these kinds of issues. That is, we are more susceptible to suggestion in times of crisis.

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, people who say that they witnessed a miraculous healing are simply saying that they don’t understand the process of spontaneous remission of disease, and so, through ignorance, and with a good dose of religious fervor thrown in, they say a miracle occurred. I do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. But those who say that it indeed is, should be honest with themselves. If the Holy Spirit, which the Bible attributes to the working of miracles, is real, it should follow that its basic nature would not change from biblical times until today. According to the texts that were edited together to make up today’s Bible, miracles in Jesus’ day were instantaneous, overtly visible, and clearly acted outside the scope of nature. For example, a man who had been blind since birth was given sight instantaneously. Lazarus was raised from the dead and needed no recuperative stay in an intensive care unit. Those were miracles. Today, some people claim that a spontaneous remission of a serious disease was a miracle. Or somebody who gets slapped on the forehead by a tent revival preacher really does not have his hearing improved. Now, if somebody could instantly grow back a severed arm by the laying on of hands… well, that would be a miracle.

That takes me to the next issue, the need to believe. Scientists have proven time and time again through properly controlled tests, that people will interpret a set of conditions in a way that supports their preconceived notions. When someone’s brain is deprived of oxygen and the neurons in the cerebral cortex start firing spontaneously all sorts of things mental begin to happen. Again, everybody has heard the stories of people, who in their last minutes ‘see their long passed family members come back to take them home’. Or, after a near fatal episode, individuals say that they saw a beautiful light, etc. etc. This is just the brain, in its final moments, starting to fail in function and nothing more. Then, by some non-miraculous mechanism, the person gets better, the brain is re-oxygenated and they come-to with a ‘miraculous’ report. Who wouldn’t want to believe? It is only natural!

And lastly, without really the need for more explanation, as I said, people in crisis are more susceptible to suggestion. Can’t you hear it, “Bob was right there at death’s door, but God said that it wasn’t his time, and only gave him a glimpse of Heaven. Praise God!”

It just doesn’t happen. People do have near death visions. But is has nothing to do with the afterlife. And the visions are certainly not miraculous.

Max

What about the people who can describe vivid scenes where they have these experiences (such as operating rooms) but their eyes are closed. I dont see how that is an hallucination or a vision. Seems like they actually left the body.

quote:

Originally posted by MrPepper:
What about the people who can describe vivid scenes where they have these experiences (such as operating rooms) but their eyes are closed. I dont see how that is an hallucination or a vision. Seems like they actually left the body.

Your post makes my point precisely. It is of anecdotal, rather than scientific evidence. “I know a guy who knew somebody once who saw a UFO” is an example of why anecdotal evidence is unreliable. Stories grow into within culture and are spread. Before long, these stories become fact. Here’s another anecdote, “There was a man who lived about 2000 years ago, and he went around healing the sick and raising the dead.”

Hope this helps.

Max

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
My objection against you has always been your scathing attacks on people who have legitimate questions about religion. You receive expressions of curiousity, yet return condemnation. Only your interpretation of the bible is the correct one.

Agree with Zip. Good post!