Hi to my Forum Friends,

In another discussion, which I began; but which has run its course after so many pages of off-the-subject disruptive posts from our atheist, agnostic, secular, and New Age Friends -- I asked the question: "Is The Old Testament Still Valid In The New Testament Churches?" The final death knell for that discussion came this morning when our Liberal Theology Friend, Neal, posted his near obscene comments lambasting every Christian who does not worship in his church and in his style. I will ignore the obscene portion of his post and respond only to the portion which is pertinent to a civil discussion.

So, we will start afresh and respond once again to that question: "Is The Old Testament Still Valid In The New Testament Churches?"

Neal tells us, "Short answer to the question 'is the Old Testament still valid in the New Testament Churches?' No. First, there are no other kinds of churches other than "New Testament churches." There may be cults that advocate a return to Hebrewism, but they are not churches as generally recognized. We live under grace as Christians, and the people of the Old Testament under superstition and oral law, written law, and fiat commandments that were little more, often times, than atrophied tribal taboo."

Neal is partially right; we are under the dispensation of "grace" now in all Christian churches. And, while our Hebrew friends in the religion of Judaism do worship the same God as we; they have yet to acknowledge, accept, and receive their Messiah, Jesus Christ. This is the specific purpose of the Tribulation -- when God has determined to bring the remnant of Israel to their Messiah.

Neal and our Liberal Theology Friends disagree, saying there will be no Tribulation. I suppose they believe that this old world will be getting more and more righteous (amillennialism) -- and, then, poof -- we will be in eternity. They totally ignore what is written in the Bible; partially because of what my Friend, Neal, tells us above -- that they believe the Old Testament is no longer relevant and should be discarded. In Neal's Liberal Theology -- all the teachings and prophecies of the Old Testament should also be discarded.

However, one thing that I have learned in over twenty years of Bible study -- God does not change His mind; nor does He lie; nor does He give us a prophecy which He does not intend to fulfill. Based upon this truth; let's take a look at what the Bible tells us about the prophecy and purpose of the Tribulation.

The archangel Gabriel brought a message to Daniel, who had been praying for his people. In Daniel 9:23, Gabriel tells Daniel, "At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision."

Then, Gabriel, gives God's message, His revelation, to Daniel.

Daniel 9:24-27, "Seventy weeks have been decreed (in the KJV it says determined) for your people (Israel) and your holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

One might ask how we know that by "weeks" God means years. In Daniel 9:2 we read, "In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years."

In this verse, the writer, Daniel, is very clearly speaking in terms of calendar years; so, we must assume that some twenty verses later, he is still referring to years. And, in Genesis 29, we see a precedence for speaking of seven years as a week. In Genesis 29, Jacob's wily father-in-law, Laban, tricks him into marrying his oldest daughter, Leah, when Jacob really wanted Rachel. Laban tells him to work another "week" (seven years) and he will give him Rachel as his wife.

So, with these two as precedence, there is no reason to believe that Daniel suddenly switched and is not speaking of years when he writes of the vision given to him by the archangel Gabriel.

We continue with Daniel 9:25, "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress."

This tells us that there will be sixty-nine weeks (seven plus sixty-two) of years, i.e., 483 years, from the time the Israelites began to rebuild Jerusalem until Christ is crucified. Artaxerxes made a decree giving Nehemiah permission, safe passage, and supplies to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the city and the walls in 445 BC. (Nehemiah 2:1-8)

Then, in Daniel 9:26, we find, "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."

"The people of the prince who is to come" -- the prince who is to come is the Antichrist, who we are told will rise from the Revived Roman Empire. The people of this "prince to come" would be the Roman army which destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and dispersed the Jews throughout the known world.

The "flood" which is mentioned; is it anything like Noah's flood? No. Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, explains it as the "flood" of Jews being dispersed. There is logical support for this thinking. In Hebrew, the word for "flood" is "sheteph," from the root word, "shataph," which, according to Strong's Concordance, means: "to overflow; to flow, run; to be swept away, be rinsed out."

And, Pastor David Guzik, Calvary Chapel, teaches that it means the "flood" of Roman soldiers which came and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

Either would logically fit -- for in 70 AD Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, and the Jews were dispersed around the world. The Jews remained dispersed until 1948. This part of prophecy has been fulfilled; the Jews have been returned to their homeland: "The LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, . . . and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you" (Deuteronomy 30:3). The temple will be rebuilt during the Tribulation.

In Nehemiah, we see the Jews come out of captivity and rebuild Jerusalem and their temple -- and 483 years (69 weeks of years) later, we see that their Messiah, Jesus Christ, was cut off or crucified. Then, prophetic time came to a standstill. The prophetic clock stopped ticking. Why? There is still one week of years, seven years, yet to be fulfilled -- for the archangel Gabriel told Daniel, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people (Israel) and your holy city (Jerusalem),. . ." Sixty-nine weeks of years, 483 years -- and then the clock stopped. What is God waiting for; what should we be expecting?

God has put earth into a holding pattern -- a parenthetical time gap -- until "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled," as we are told in Luke 21:20-24, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. . . and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

So, what does this mean? "And Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

When will God decree that the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled? The apostle Paul tells us in Romans 11 that Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ is not final; that a remnant of Israel will find salvation in Christ. But, this parenthetical time period -- from the time of Christ's crucifixion until He returns for His church, i.e., the Church Age -- is for the salvation of the Gentiles. As Paul explains in Romans 11:11-29, we Gentiles are the "wild branches" which are grafted into into the cultivated olive tree (God's chosen people) because the natural branches have broken off.

Once the times of the Gentiles, the time that we are allocated to be grafted into His olive tree, is completed; then God will have His final dealings with His chosen people, Israel. This time of dealing with Israel has been determined to be the 70th week -- Daniel's Seventieth Week. That week of years, seven years, has been set aside by God for this purpose; to bring His remnant of Israel into His fold, into His eternal family.

The Israelis took possession of Jerusalem in 1967 during the Six Day War. In the Six Day War of June 5, 1967 to June 10, 1967, Israel was attacked by and defeated the much larger armies of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Israel captured the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt; the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) from Jordan; and the Golan Heights from Syria.

The Gentiles, Jordan, were driven out of Jerusalem. But the holy temple mount is still in Arab possession, under Arab (Gentile) rule. The most important piece of real estate in Jerusalem -- and prophetically speaking, the most important piece of real estate in the world -- is still trampled being trampled by under foot by Gentiles. This will get even worse during the Tribulation -- but, will be resolved in Israel's favor forever with the Millennial Kingdom.

Before God can begin His final week of years, the Tribulation, to deal with Israel -- He first must deal with His church, His body of Christian believers. This task of dealing with the church is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and in I Corinthians 15:50-53. We call it the Rapture, from the Latin word, rapiemur, translated from the Greek word, harpazo, which means to be "caught up."

We Christian believers are assured by Jesus Christ, in Revelation 3:10, that He will "keep us from the hour of testing" -- i.e., the times of the Tribulation. He will rapture His church, His body of believers worldwide -- and then, we continue with the story of Daniel's prophecy.

Daniel 9:27, "And he (Antichrist) [i\will make a firm covenant with the many [/i](Israel) for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Yes, the Antichrist has ridden onto the scene on his white horse (Revelation 6:2), the symbol of the conquering general from the Revived Roman Empire. You can learn more about this fellow in Revelation 13:1-10 and about his second in command, you might say his Chief-of-Staff, the False Prophet, in Revelation 13:11-18.

This Satan inspired, empowered, and driven world leader will sign a seven year peace agreement with the nation of Israel. This accomplishes two things: one, it starts the Tribulation clock ticking and, two, he will somehow, in his peace accord, make it possible for Israel to rebuild her temple on the temple mount. Yes, Israel will once again have her temple and will be be worshiping there; with all her sacrifices and offerings.

Then, ". . .in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate. . ." -- the Antichrist will enter the temple and declare himself God and demand to be worshiped; desolating the temple.

This leads to the latter half of the Tribulation, often called the Great Tribulation -- when the Antichrist lays aside all pretensions of peace with Israel -- and life become hell on earth for all who do not have his sign and who do not worship him. As Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:22, "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

This is when Jesus Christ, the King of kings, will return in glory, His Second Coming -- the end of the seven year Tribulation. As we are told in Revelation 19:11-21, the King of kings, Jesus Christ, returns -- bringing with Him His bride, the glorified, immortal church, and all of His Old Testament believers.

He returns to cast Satan into the abyss; to cast the Antichrist and False Prophet into hell; and to judge the Tribulation survivors. This is the Sheep and Goats Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46). Then, He establishes His Millennial Kingdom, the Kingdom of God on earth. He will rule the earth, all the nations, from the throne of David in Jerusalem for one thousand years.

Then, the final battle, when Satan has been released from the abyss and comes with his renewed army against Jesus Christ and the holy city, Jerusalem. This is Satan's final defeat and he is cast into hell. Next, the Great White Throne Judgment of non-believers, which we read about both in Revelation 20, where all people who rejected God and Jesus Christ in this life will be resurrected in their immortal bodies and have their last hearing before being cast into hell for eternity. This judgment is not to determine their guilt or innocence; that was determined when they breathed their last breath on earth still denying Jesus Christ. This is their opportunity to see what they have lost and why.

Finally, the New Heaven, the New Earth, the New Jerusalem -- and ETERNITY.

So, Neal, you may believe and teach in your church "the Old Testament under superstition and oral law, written law, and fiat commandments that were little more, oftentimes, than atrophied tribal taboo." However, to God, and to all true believers -- the prophecies of the Old Testament and the teachings of the Old Testament -- are still very valid for us today.

There are parts of the Old Testament which were given specifically to the nation Israel, i.e., dietary laws, Sabbath laws, marriage laws, etc. However, the teachings of the Old Testament are still valid today. The most obvious question which liberals and non-believers ask in their attempt to disprove the Old Testament is, "So, if the Old Testament is still in effect today; that means that homosexuals, prostitutes, those who dishonor their parents, and all the other sins which are supposed to be punished by death -- should still be punished by death today. Is that what you believe and teach?"

Yes, all of the Old Testament judgments of death are still applicable today. HOWEVER, and it is a big however -- our death penalty debt has already been paid for us. Jesus Christ died a cruel and horrible death on the cross -- to pay the death penalty debt that you, I, and all of mankind owes to a righteous God. Your pardon is marked "PAID IN FULL!" -- and is ready for you to accept. But, if anyone refuses to accept this free gift, this "Paid In Full" redemption and salvation -- then, he has chosen to condemn himself.

Yes, Neal, even though we live in the dispensation of grace; the Old Testament is still a very valid and important part of our Bible, our Word of God. None of the Word of God is disposable; nor replaceable.

I pray that I have cleared up some of your misunderstanding about God's Word and, specifically, the Old Testament.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Sorry Billy, NOVA is running a 2 hour dramatisation of the life of Darwin and I am going to be tied up for a while -- too busy to feed the trolls tonight, I fear. I had a hard time rounding up one of the puppies at supper and that was a rough feeding time, your oversized ego will have to wait until I finish going over an essay I have been working on editing for some time now, the topic is "The sound of lint gathering in my navel" and vastly more entertaining than your ludicrous baiting. You'll have to move onto a new feeder. I am freaking tired of your old sorry arse.

Hi Neal,

I am sorry that you tire so easily. But, I do hope you get rest. Possibly if you get enough rest, your good side will come out (you do have one, I hope -- although on the Forum we have never seen it) and you will quit trying to "kill" all Christians who do not follow your church.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, isn't " 'kill' all the christians who don't believe as you do" exactly what you do with every word you write?

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Bill, isn't " 'kill' all the christians who don't believe as you do" exactly what you do with every word you write?

....I agree Zip, and I'm so disgusted now I have to shut this off and go to bed. GOOD NIGHT BILLY!

MY, MY, MY, I DO THINK I HAVE RILED THE LIBERAL LEFT!

as is my understanding, being raised attending COC. the entire bible is relevant and an example given to man from god. however, when christ died on the cross, his blood sealed the new covenant which we are to live by today.

"Liberal Christianity" is what you seem to slap on everyone who believes differently than you do. I expect you should then be referred to henceforth as "The Christian Taliban".

I like Anti-Talking Snake Rapture Ready Intolerance Corps, myself.

Hi Bird,

You tell us, "As is my understanding, being raised attending COC, the entire Bible is relevant and an example given to man from God. However, when Christ died on the cross, His blood sealed the new covenant which we are to live by today."

You are right that the entire Bible is valid and applicable to all people today. In the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments and the Law were given to shine His light upon sin, to make man aware of his sin. In the New Testament, the New Covenant, Jesus came to "pay in full" the sin debt for all mankind -- and to make salvation available to all who will, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- accept this free gift of salvation. Yes, the Old Testament laws of death are still applicable today; but, Jesus Christ has paid that debt for all who will believe.

Today, we all must die physically (except those alive at the Rapture) -- but, those who are Christian believers will live spiritually with and through Him. Those who are not alive spiritually in His Light, condemn themselves to eternal darkness in hell.

Jesus came to take us from the dispensation of Law to the dispensation of Grace, the New Covenant or New Testament. However, He told us, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" (Matthew 5:17-18).

Under the Law, no person could be saved. That was not the purpose of the Law, which was to make the Israelites aware of their sin, to give them a knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20). The purpose of salvation is that we will have the righteousness of Jesus Christ attributed, or imputed, to us when He becomes our personal Lord and Savior, i.e, when we are born again (John 3:3).

Until we are clothed with that righteousness of Jesus Christ; we cannot enter into the presence of God the Father, for He cannot look upon unrighteousness. We are told in Isaiah 64:6 that our human righteousness is like filthy rags before God; we can never do enough good works to make us righteous before God. However, with the righteousness of Jesus Christ covering us; we are made clean in the eyes of God.

The Old Testament saints, i.e., believers did not go into the presence of God when they died; they went into that compartment of Hades called the Bosom of Abraham (Luke 16:19-31). They were saved, but not yet covered by the blood of Christ, not yet under His umbrella of righteousness. However, when Jesus Christ came to earth to be our Kinsman Redeemer, was crucified to pay our sin debt to God, He went into Hades for three days.

When He was resurrected, He brought with Him, into heaven, the Old Testament saints who were in the Bosom of Abraham (Ephesians 4:8) -- and His resurrection assured the resurrection of all mankind; the righteous to eternal life with God; the unrighteous to eternal life in hell. After His ascension (Acts 1:6-11), He is sitting at the right hand of God the Father, interceding continually for all believers (Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25, Hebrews 9:24).

Yes, Bird, the Bible is our complete, inspired, inerrant, literal Word of God -- His full revelation to all mankind.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
MY, MY, MY, I DO THINK I HAVE RILED THE LIBERAL LEFT!

Why are you happy 'riling" people up? I thought the bible said blessed are the peacemakers.

quote:

Originally posted by MrPepper:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray: MY, MY, MY, I DO THINK I HAVE RILED THE LIBERAL LEFT!

Why are you happy 'riling" people up? I thought the bible said blessed are the peacemakers.

Hi Pepper,

Have you heard the story of the Yankee from New York who came to Alabama to be a gentleman farmer? He needs a mule and, as it happens, Farmer Jones has a mule for sale. So, Gentleman Farmer visits Farmer Jones and buys his mule.

Farmer Jones tells Gentleman Farmer, "You must always be gentle with him; he is a sensitive animal."

Gentleman Farmer, "Not a problem. I love animals and would never harm one."

Farmer Jones hands the rein to Gentleman Farmer, who then proceeds to walk toward his truck. But, Sensitive Mule refused to budge; just stood there looking at him. No matter how hard Gentleman Farmer pulled and tugged on the rein; Sensitive Mule refused to move an inch; he just dug in and stood there.

Farmer Jones picks up a large stick, walks over, and hits Sensitive Mule square on his forehead. And, lo and behold, Sensitive Mule began walking toward the truck.

Gentleman Farmer was aghast! "Why did you do that? You told me that I have to treat him gently -- and then you hit him with a large stick!"

Farmer Jones shrugged and told him, "That is true. But, first, you have to get his attention."

End of story.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by MrPepper:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray: MY, MY, MY, I DO THINK I HAVE RILED THE LIBERAL LEFT!

Why are you happy 'riling" people up? I thought the bible said blessed are the peacemakers.

Hi Pepper,

Have you heard the story of the Yankee from New York who came to Alabama to be a gentleman farmer? He needs a mule and, as it happens, Farmer Jones has a mule for sale. So, Gentleman Farmer visits Farmer Jones and buys his mule.

Farmer Jones tells Gentleman Farmer, "You must always be gentle with him; he is a sensitive animal."

Gentleman Farmer, "Not a problem. I love animals and would never harm one."

Farmer Jones hands the rein to Gentleman Farmer, who then proceeds to walk toward his truck. But, Sensitive Mule refused to budge; just stood there looking at him. No matter how hard Gentleman Farmer pulled and tugged on the rein; Sensitive Mule refused to move an inch; he just dug in and stood there.

Farmer Jones picks up a large stick, walks over, and hits Sensitive Mule square on his forehead. And, lo and behold, Sensitive Mule began walking toward the truck.

Gentleman Farmer was aghast! "Why did you do that? You told me that I have to treat him gently -- and then you hit him with a large stick!"

Farmer Jones shrugged and told him, "That is true. But, first, you have to get his attention."

End of story.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Do you smack your wife around too? Just to "get her attention"?