Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the rather long running discussion, "Did Jesus Really Heal People?" -- my Friend, Max, tells us, "I spent many years attending various churches. Some liberal, and one, a very conservative, fundamentalist organization. In both, I was taught to challenge the minister, if I thought what they were teaching was incorrect. Well, I did, and subsequently found out that the authority in the conservative church, really didn't mean what they were saying."

Max, possibly even you missed the elusive irony of your statement, "I spent many years attending various churches."

Spending time in churches, regardless of how regular one attends -- does not, in any way, make one a Christian believer. Satan spends more time in churches than any of us. But, his reason is not to grow the family of God.

From my high school days at Sheffield High -- until I was fifty years old, I spent time in many, many churches. That includes the Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran -- and many flavors of Baptist. Through all of that, I even wanted to be a believer; but, not if it meant living the Christian lifestyle. No, I wanted to party-hearty for six days and then attend church on Sunday to make me feel Godly. All it made me feel was Godless. So, like any "thinking" man -- I disposed of the one which was making me squirm; I chose the party life over the Christian life. And, thus I sat until I was fifty years old.

On your second statement, "In both, I was taught to challenge the minister, if I thought what they were teaching was incorrect" -- I agree with you. Often I have said that I have never met a pastor or teacher with whom I agree one hundred percent. However, that comes from studying the Bible in an attempt to mature in my knowledge of God's Word and to draw closer to Him. It, in no way, implies that they were teaching erroneous or false teachings; only that my interpretation was somewhat different from theirs. Yet, this has never, and should never, occur when the teachings involve the Essential Christian Doctrines.

Max, I sense that your reason for challenging them was to "prove" them and the Bible wrong.

The Bible, in Acts 17:11, tells us to challenge our teachers; but, to do it by testing what they teach "against" Scripture. This is done by sincerely seeking true knowledge of Scripture; not while seeking loop holes and faults with Scripture and Christian teachers.

To be very clear, where ALL Christian believers MUST agree is on the Essential Biblical Doctrines: (1) The deity of Jesus Christ, (2) The Trinity, (3) Salvation by Grace, (4) The Resurrection of Jesus Christ, (5) The Gospel, (6) Heaven and hell are real places, and (7) The Bible is the Written Word of God and, as such, is inspired and inerrant.

Beyond these, it is healthy and productive to discuss, and sometimes even disagree, on other Biblical issues. It is healthy and productive because such discussions should lead one to go deeper in his/her study and understanding of God's Word, the Bible.

And, with your third point, "Well, I did, and subsequently found out that the authority in the conservative church, really didn't mean what they were saying" -- I would suggest that if you are attending a church where the clergy, the leadership, will not encourage or allow you to question their teachings (if your questioning is based upon Scripture) -- then, it is time to find a new church.

However, if you are questioning their teachings or arguing with them based upon your "extensive" knowledge of science and evolution; you may want to get better acquainted with your Bible and what it teaches.

Next, you tell us, "Same goes on in this forum. When an idea is challenged, at least by me, I am not, in general ridiculing the idea. If there is ridicule in my tone sometimes, it is directed at those who bombast their way through a discussion without thinking."

What I believe you are telling us here is that, as long as the one whom you are challenging does not disagree with your secular ideas, you will not ridicule him/her. However, if one chooses to support or defend Biblical teaching; then, that warrants your ridicule. Once again, more of your subtle, elusive irony -- agree with me and all is well. But, speak up for God and Christianity and you deserve ridicule. Now, why does this not surprise me?

Then, you tell us, "I have said, time and over again that I do not condemn anybody of faith. Period. What I challenge, is the illogical, self-assured people who are more than willing to condemn others who don't believe just as they do... even fellow Christians."

In other words, as long as we do not challenge you or any of your secular "science" thinking -- or any of your Liberal Theology Friends; we will not be ridiculed. However, if we speak the truth from the Bible; if we share Biblical truths -- then, we deserve, in your mind, to be ridiculed. Max, I am so happy to see that you are totally open minded and willing to have constructive discussions.

Finally, you say, "This is a place for the exchange of ideas."

I could not agree more. However, when you or any of your Friends begin to preach atheism, secularism, or New Age religious false teachings on the Religion Forum -- I will refute those false teachings. Yet, even with that, I will not do it in a nasty, vindictive manner -- such as has been cast my way many times by our Liberal Theology Friends.

Max, I have often commented in my Bible study group how it amazes me that the most vehement, angry comments toward Christians on the Religion Forum do not come from atheists or secularists -- but, from our Liberal Theology Friends and our New Age Friend. This is not to say that our atheist/secularist Friends have not resorted to crude and lewd comments in the past; only that, for some reason, our Liberal Theology Friends seem to go them one better all the time. I guess I am saying that our Liberal Friends are more consistent -- always on the attack against Conservative Christians.

Yes, Max, I would love to have an exchange of ideas with you. But, be forewarned that if your ideas are such that they might mislead new Christians or new seekers -- I will refute them.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Dear forum members. I choose not to engage Bill Gray in this discussion, as I believe that it will accomplish nothing of value.

If you choose to do so, please be advised that your participation here is very fine with me. I have not read what Mr. Gray has written in his first post, and for the record, will not re-vosot this thread.

Playing his games has proven to be a fruitless exercise that I have chosen to avoid. And I would wholeheartedly admonish you to do the same. Nothing will shut up Bill better than simply ignoring him.

Max

Hi Max,

Thank you for your help. Please do continue to encourage all your atheist, secularist, New Age, et al, Friends to Ingnore me -- and that will give me more time to concentrate on those whom I consider my main purpose for being on the Religion Forum -- those thousands of other readers who may, or may not, post.

I do appreciate your help. And, I do pray that the weather in Florence/Bavaria is good.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, please read my thread on tithing and feel free to reply!

It's this type of attitude that drives so many people away from churches. It's what drove me away for so many years.

Posting an insulting, judgmental post and saying "God Bless" at the end just reinforces those negative feelings towards Christians. Why would anyone be a Christian when someone who claims Christianity acts like a royal jerk?

I think discovering that not all Christians are like Bill is what helped me find my faith again. There are Christians out there who aren't pious and judgmental out there.

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
It's this type of attitude that drives so many people away from churches. It's what drove me away for so many years.

Posting an insulting, judgmental post and saying "God Bless" at the end just reinforces those negative feelings towards Christians. Why would anyone be a Christian when someone who claims Christianity acts like a royal jerk?

I think discovering that not all Christians are like Bill is what helped me find my faith again. There are Christians out there who aren't pious and judgmental out there.

Nash, people like Bill is what also drove me away from wanting to be a part of any of it. I'm happy you found that not all Christians are pious and judgmental. I'm afraid to even try to find them.

I think it's very sad that Bill thinks this is part of his calling. I've never heard compassion & love in any of his post, only judgement.

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
It's this type of attitude that drives so many people away from churches. It's what drove me away for so many years.

Posting an insulting, judgmental post and saying "God Bless" at the end just reinforces those negative feelings towards Christians. Why would anyone be a Christian when someone who claims Christianity acts like a royal jerk?

I think discovering that not all Christians are like Bill is what helped me find my faith again. There are Christians out there who aren't pious and judgmental out there.

Nash, people like Bill is what also drove me away from wanting to be a part of any of it. I'm happy you found that not all Christians are pious and judgmental. I'm afraid to even try to find them.

I think it's very sad that Bill thinks this is part of his calling. I've never heard compassion & love in any of his post, only judgement.

What I've found is that there are a lot of us who have left Christianity because of the actions of it's "Christians". What I've learned is that they tend to be a very loud exception and not the rule.

quote:

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill

Ya ever notice how those who preach goodwill and tolerance the loudest tend to be the most ill-willed and least tolerant?

It's no wonder I quit attending church.

Hmph. "Good Christians", indeed!

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy: Ya ever notice how those who preach goodwill and tolerance the loudest tend to be the most ill-willed and least tolerant?

It's no wonder I quit attending church. Hmph. "Good Christians", indeed!

Hi Puppy,

A person can always find a "good" reason to not attend church. I don't like the people; I don't like the pastor; I don't like the music; I don't like the parking; I don't like the building; I don't like the seats; the wind blows my hair the wrong way; service is too long; service is too short; service is the wrong time; and on and on and on, ad infinitum.

Being a Christian has nothing to do with any of those things. Being a Christian is a relationship with Jesus Christ -- not the congregation nor the pastor.

You tell a child to take a bath -- and he/she will find a thousands reasons to not do it. Yet, once he does -- you notice that he is cleaner and much more relaxed, much happier. The same happens when one become a Christian; all the "old sins" are washed away -- and you are a new person; cleansed by the blood of the Lamb.

Puppy, from your comments, I would guess that you have never tried such a relationship. You really should. And, don't worry about feeling convicted pretty often -- even we Christian believers still feel convicted -- for we still sin. But, the difference is that we are forgiven sinners. It is like taking that bath; you may have missed a spot or two -- but, you are still considered cleansed.

Try it; you will like it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hmm. No counterattack... OK. Fair enough. I'll stand down...for now.

Bill, I never ever looked for a reason not to attend church. Those reasons were already there.
Like I mentioned in probably my earliest post, I was raised a strict Roman Catholic. I was told to attend church. Period. I was not to question or examine the reasons why-I was just to DO IT.
So I did-and hated almost every minute of it because I hadn't chosen to attend church but was forced to attend.
Nonetheless, I tried to understand and go through the motions and learn a thing or five, but like I mentioned in that earlier thread-When I DID ask questions, I was either given religious-magic-doublespeak or I was told I would be able to understand better when I was older. (Read-"I would have been exposed to it long enough to be well-programmed by then.").
Well, I'm in my mid forties and I still don't understand it any better.
I went to parochial school for a time until they more or less suggested that I not come back anymore because they were tired of the disruption in the programming that my constant questions and insistence on explanations caused.
You see...They wanted me to blindly believe.
As in "Just shut up and eat your soylent green."
I couldn't do that very well then and I for sure cannot now.
I can believe anything-even if I can't see it-that MAKES SENSE.
Science, I believe. It has irrefutable, logical laws that it has to follow or nothing works right. Even if I don't understand, for instance exactly how a nuclear reaction occurs, I've seen with my own eyes the blue glow of Cherenkov radiation. I know that there are actual, physical, logical things going on inside a reactor. Not "magic."
So far, I haven't seen religion produce much but a lot of wars and crazy people and hypocrites.
LOUD ones that preach good and righteousness and then knock me 'cause I don't believe. Or knock me 'cause I don't believe THEIR way.
I listen to everybody, Bill. Even you when you're not reciting word-for-word from the book because somewhere in all that preaching I keep thinking one time there might just be a kernel of logic I can latch onto and put away for future reference like a jigsaw puzzle piece of a bigger picture.
However, I absolutely flat a** unconditionally refuse to be LED. I am not a sheep and I do not require a shepherd.
You mentioned in another post that you more or less "got religion" when you were fifty after spending a chunk of your life involved with "the partying life."
I've met a lot of people who were into drugs and booze and other self-destructive lifestyles, too. "Getting religion" saved them from certain death or incarceration. It worked for them-Good! Everybody needs something to believe in and if it is a replacement for destructive behavior-so much the better.
I have none of those problems. I'm pretty much straight and narrow. I've spent too many years on my own just trying to survive and stay relatively sane. Just maintaining that condition took almost all my time-time that most people would more than likely have wasted partying and engaging in self-destructive behaviors out of boredom or recklessness.
I don't need to be "saved" because I don't believe I'm ****ed. I just want to learn. What I've learned from you is that you know how to read and recite. I already know how to do that and it doesn't bring me any closer to the answers I seek. I also accept the fact that perhaps none of us will ever know the truth until the end comes. Maybe it will not matter at that point. I don't know. I suspect that because you don't want to believe or even consider the possibility that the end might simply be "The End", (and neither did the people who wrote that book you preach from) that you need a god and a heaven to believe in because otherwise-there'd be no hope for anything else and life would pretty much be pointless then, wouldn't it?
I consider these things. I wonder if there is a god and an afterlife of some sort, and I wonder about suddenly being conscious of nothing.

I've asked lots of questions of serious and not so serious believers and I've spoken with serious non-believers. Actually, more often than not-the atheists and agnostics make more sense to me because they're more willing to consider other possibilities besides that story book. Possibilities that make more sense than that book anyway.
The last seriously religious person I sat down and discussed religion with was a member of an organization whose initials can also be used to form the words "(J)ohnnie (W)alker."
The answer to every question I asked was a quote from a bible.
This "Johnnie Walker" could not explain to me WHY they believed what they were preaching to me in their own words other than to say "Because it is written!"
Honestly, I think that's a piss-poor reason to believe anything. Ya don't believe me? I got a few friends in Nigeria who have a whole lotta money they need to move out of their country real fast and all they need is some shill *oops! I mean, "Kind, Compassionate person who wouldn't mind a couple million just for helping them out." 419ers count on people blindly believing stuff that's written, too. You'd be amazed at how many morons actually believe that crap and find out it wasn't exactly what they had in mind-but only after it's too late to do anything about it.
You say that the Liberal Theologists, secularists and New Agers are preaching false truths?
How 'bout the false truths YOU are preaching?
WHAT!? You might say?
If I were a devout Muslim-You'd be on my list of infidels that needed a-cleansing straight away because then MY god would be the only true god-just as you are preaching to us about your god.
The only difference I can see between you and the raggedy-headed, bomb-vest-wearing-rusty-AK-47-toting resident of the middle east is you probably want really badly to see the sun come up tomorrow.
Well, that and 72 virgins kinda sounds like a bum deal...

Hi Puppy,

Unfortunately, many people have had bad experiences in churches, both Protestant and Roman Catholic. I had a bad experience with the Nazarene church in Sheffield when I was twelve years old -- and it soured me for many years. As a young man in the Air Force and in subsequent years, I had several bad experiences in the Roman Catholic church. And, like a lot of folks, I used these as excuses to stay away from God until I was fifty.

Over the years, I was in and out of many churches; but, never became a Christian believer. I even sat with a pastor for several hours debating with him that one does not have to attend church to be a Christian. Of course I was speaking from ignorance; for I was not a Christian believer -- so, how could I know?

Yet, if anyone asked, I would say without hesitation, "Yes, I am a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I was born and raised in Alabama, the belt buckle of the Bible belt. I have gone to church off and on many times throughout the years. Yes, I am a Christian." However, at that time, I could not have told you what made a person a Christian believer. And, as far as believing in God making me a Christian -- then, Satan would be a better Christian than I was -- for he knew God personally, face to face, long before we were created. Yet, I don't think anyone would call Satan a Christian; nor was Bill Gray at the time.

I know that, in my case, I used the fact that there were undesirable people in churches as an excuse to stay away. And, the fact that attending church made me feel guilty about my party life did not help. I had a choice to make -- and, at that time, I chose the party life. But, praise God, today, and for eternity, I now choose the Christian life.

As I said in my earlier post, it is not the people in the church, nor the church facility, nor the church organization which can save us. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can and does save us. So, we must be willing to look past the few unpleasant people we occasionally meet in church; we must look past the music we may not like; we must look past other objections we find -- and we must look only at the One who can save us, Jesus Christ.

But, I will say this. If you are in a church where there is a lot of contention and friction; if you are in a church which does not display Christian love -- look around for a new church. There are a lot of really good Christian churches where you can have warm Christian fellowship. Look for one that is Christ-centered in its teachings -- and that is a Bible-teaching church; and, get involved. Get involved in their weekly Bible study group; get involved in their Sunday School classes. You will find that as you mature in your knowledge of God's Word -- a lot of the things which have bothered you or which do bother you, will fade away.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Being a Christian has nothing to do with any of those things. Being a Christian is a relationship with Jesus Christ -- not the congregation nor the pastor.

weird. you go and say these vaguely smart comments then almost immediately go and spew hatred, intolerance and stupidity in the next.

what an interesting creature you are, my gay little old man!

OK Bill.

Just out of sheer curiosity, WHY did you decide to follow Christ at the age of fifty? Why not sooner-or later, for that matter?

What made you decide that you were "Going the wrong way" or "missing something" that the teachings of Jesus could provide. Was religion the only alternative to something worse? Or did you have some sort of revelation? And why?

The reason I ask you this is because while I'm not really interested in the study of the bible-maybe because I haven't reached that point yet, if ever-I AM interested in what makes a person suddenly decide to get religion other than it's better than continuing badly and dying or going to jail on account of self-destructive behavior?
What triggers that kind of event?
I've been through some really major life and death tribulations and trials and not once did religion ever occur to me.

Just wondering about the human nature aspect of belief in a god-nevermind the stories and teachings-they're irrelevant to me at this point.
Once I can get a grasp of the concept that causes someone to belive in god-THEN maybe I can consider what is written about that god.

Just wonderin'.

quote:

What made you decide that you were "Going the wrong way" or "missing something" that the teachings of Jesus could provide. Was religion the only alternative to something worse? Or did you have some sort of revelation? And why?

the old guys age would suggest that he's about ripe for being a member of the acid tripping dope smokin free lovin 60s. i further suspect he tried new age "Aquarius" stuff, dabbled in some witchy stuff, then finally had some sorta miracle that caused him to accept Jesus as his savior. I reckon there's more than one way to skina cat but the wise man just goes ahead and accepts salvation waay before that.

there is ample evidence that the old druggies of that time open up (or destroy?) some sort of 'god' section of the brain that makes them more susceptible to getting all Jesusy.

so i suspect the old guy took one or ten too many trips.

i consider myself a Christin, by the way, so i'm not slighting anyone here except for that hateful old turd. i can't believe there are still people out there like that who call themselves Christians. ewwww.

Yeah, Fugly...I had already thought of that but I figure I might as well ask him anyway in case I guessed wrong. See, like I said earlier, I know lots of people who "found God" after getting in some really bad shape. I understand that for them, maybe religion or God is truly "salvation." Salvation from self-destruction.

What I'm trying to figure out is how can somebody like me who doesn't really believe that I particularly "need a-savin'" could possibly come to believe in a "god?"

If I can understand how that can happen-I can begin to understand what leads to the belief.