Hi to my Forum Friends,

In a recent post on another discussion, "Coming To Terms When We No Longer Believe" -- our Friend, Max, gives us a new definition of FAITH.

Max tells us, rightfully, that before our universe was created; there was nothing. I will say that there was nothing but God; but, we will get to that later. There was no space, no time, nothing. Yet, according to Max, and what he copy/pasted from Stephen Hawking -- in all that nothing, some object which he calls a singularity, did exist. I guess my first question would be: "Since nothing else existed -- where did that small singularity come from?"

And, Max, you tell us that this singularity was smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. That is pretty small. It must have been very lonely sitting out there in all that nothingness.

Next, Max tells us that this dot size singularity exploded -- The Big Bang! How big of a bang could one expect from a singularity smaller than a period?

Now, let's look at what we know about out universe. First, we will start with our Solar System which consists of earth, the sun, the moon, and eight planets.

OUR SOLAR SYSTEM: Our Earth is just a tiny planet in our vast Solar System. From Earth, five other planets are visible using only your eyes: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. The other planets (Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto) are visible with the use of a telescope.

OUR GALAXY: Our solar system is located in the outer reaches of the Milky Way Galaxy, which is a spiral galaxy. Our Solar System sits at the tip of one of those spirals. The Milky Way Galaxy contains roughly 200 billion stars.

Our Milky Way Galaxy is about 80,000 to 120,000 light-years across and less than 7,000 light-years thick.

A light-year is defined as the distance it takes light travels in one year. Light traveling for a year equals one light-year. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. And, there are a bunch of seconds in one year. So, one light-year is a pretty far piece. And, the Milky Way Galaxy is 80,000 to 120,000 light-years across and 7,000 light-years thick, making it look like a giant discus.

OUR UNIVERSE: The Universe comprises everything that physically exists, the entirety of space and time, all forms of matter and energy, and the physical laws and constants that govern them.

The most current estimates guess that there are 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Universe, each of which has hundreds of billions of stars. A recent German super computer simulation put that number even higher: 500 billion galaxies in the universe. And, our Milky Way Galaxy is one of the smallest galaxies in the universe. The universe is at least 156 billion light-years wide.

Now, Max, we are talking about some humongous numbers here -- 156 billion light-years wide, trillions of stars and planets -- most of them much larger than our earth.

And, Max, you tell us that ALL OF THIS came from one little period sized singularity, object, exploding?

Wow. You talk about FAITH! That, my Friend, does stretch the boundaries of any kind of faith.

Max, you tell us that you can believe this fairy tale -- yet, you cannot believe in God? Which is easier it is to believe: God and that He created the heavens and the earth -- or to believe that a small, small period sized object sitting somewhere in nothingness, created all this vast universe -- by exploding?

And, you still have not explained how that small period size object, or singularity, came to be. Who created it? Who hung it out in that vast nothingness? And, if it was nothingness -- how did that small object hang there? Sorry, Max, I do not have that much faith.

But, to look at the beauty and vastness of our universe; to look at the beauty of nature all around us; to look at the complexity of even the simplest object; to look at the complexity of the human body -- to look at all of these and believe that our all knowing, all powerful, Almighty God created it -- is easy. Why, because I have seen Him fulfill prophecy, I have seen Him answer prayer -- small and large. I have seen so much proof that my God exists and is the Creator; that it is easy to believe.

Yet, to believe that this tiny period size object floating in nothingness created this vast universe -- is almost as unbelievable as believing that the amazing machine called the human body evolved from a lifeless, simple cell floating in a primordial swamp.

Max, my Friend, if you recall, several years ago I wrote and posted a story called NOTHING COMES TO FORUMLAND! -- with the two evangelists, Argue and Debate, as the leading characters whose goal in life was to bring their religion of Nothing to Forumland.. Well, my Friend, it seems you have returned and you are still trying to sell your religion of NOTHING in Forumland. Sorry, no sale!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bill Gray,

Thank you for reading my post.

Get some help, Bill.

Max

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
But, to look at the beauty and vastness of our universe; to look at the beauty of nature all around us; to look at the complexity of even the simplest object; to look at the complexity of the human body -- to look at all of these and believe that our all knowing, all powerful, Almighty God created it -- is easy. Why, because I have seen Him fulfill prophecy, I have seen Him answer prayer -- small and large. I have seen so much proof that my God exists and is the Creator; that it is easy to believe.

-Smacks forehead--
stump face academy... sausage assassin..... hill scoggin...



I broke my desk just now.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Road Puppy,

quote:

Originally posted by Max Kuster:
Thank you for reading my post.

Get some help, Bill. Max

Hi Max,

Typical atheist response: "You're stupid! -- You're ignorant! -- You need help!" -- and, on and on, ad infinitum.

A better approach would be to just show us all where I am wrong in what I wrote. But, then, no one can accuse an agnostic turned atheist turned secular humanist turned whatever -- of using the best approach. That would deny him the pleasure of a short, cutesy response.

But, my Friend, you might try it; you might grow to like it.

Show me where I am wrong and I will gladly apologize. If you cannot; don't you think an apology would be appropriate coming from you?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I am not going to engage you Bill for reasons that I have stated before.

Get some help.

Max

But, what have you been doing if not engaging?

quote:

Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
But, what have you been doing if not engaging?

Hi Ronnie. I tried for several times to reason with Bill, however it just didn't work out. I had to learn for myself that he is simply incapable of conducting an intelligent discussion. Instead he displays such irrational behavior that It makes me say things that I regret.

I believe that most everybody has valid opinions, even those with whom I do not agree. And, it is OK to disagree with me. As have a lot of individuals on this forum.

Two things make me strongly reply. The first thing is when someone completely spins what I say into something that is clearly not my meaning. The other, like Gray, is when sophomoric, uneducated people refuse to accept a reasonable argument, and give an intelligent response. Instead, they respond with some tired platitude, accuse me of being someone else, posting a childish cartoon, or providing evidence that they are deeply troubled souls with some sort of self-destructive agenda.

An honest person will look at these sorts of responses and acknowledge that what I say is true.

I am not trying to insult you, or your intelligence. I am only trying to explain why folks like Bill Gray are helping to destroy the very religion they are trying to promote.

Max

Will somebody please go over Bill Gray's post and answer his challenge for me? I need a break.

Max

The only thing I could find errant was that Bill used the wrong units for the speed of light. I believe he meant to say 186,000 miles per second.

Other than that, I completely agree with him.

Check the size of the known universe.

By the way, I invite you to read my post. I would like to read your thoughts.

Max

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
The only thing I could find errant was that Bill used the wrong units for the speed of light. I believe he meant to say 186,000 miles per second.

Other than that, I completely agree with him.

Hi Mr. Hoob,

You are right, I made a typo -- and then made it worse by converting the typo to miles. I knew it was miles and not feet; but, was tired from preparing my Sunday School lesson plan for today. Thank you for correcting me.

Max mentioned, "Check the size of the known universe."

Yes, Max, the universe is somewhere in the neighborhood of 156 billion light-years across; with trillions of stars and planets. And, you tell us that all of this came from a singularity, or force field, or object -- that was the size of the period at the end of this sentence. This period -- "." -- and you believe that some type of object or force field this size -- exploded and created this vast universe?

Max, my Friend -- that is FAITH beyond all reason. You can honestly believe that -- yet, you cannot believe in God? Something is most certainly out of balance, off center.

Please explain this logic to us. I know -- you do not have time, you do not want to be bothered. Will someone else please respond to Bill -- because Max cannot. He has no answer. So, Max will do the typical atheist/secularist thing -- and start calling us stupid, ignorant, etc.

Again, Hoob, thank you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
But, what have you been doing if not engaging?

Surrender...admit defeat...acquisce...retreat...???

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:
The only thing I could find errant was that Bill used the wrong units for the speed of light. I believe he meant to say 186,000 miles per second.

Other than that, I completely agree with him.

Hi Mr. Hoob,

You are right, I made a typo -- and then made it worse by converting the typo to miles. I knew it was miles and not feet; but, was tired from preparing my Sunday School lesson plan for today. Thank you for correcting me.

Max mentioned, "Check the size of the known universe."

Yes, Max, the universe is somewhere in the neighborhood of 156 billion light-years across; with trillions of stars and planets. And, you tell us that all of this came from a singularity, or force field, or object -- that was the size of the period at the end of this sentence. This period -- "." -- and you believe that some type of object or force field this size -- exploded and created this vast universe?

Max, my Friend -- that is FAITH beyond all reason. You can honestly believe that -- yet, you cannot believe in God? Something is most certainly out of balance, off center.

Please explain this logic to us. I know -- you do not have time, you do not want to be bothered. Will someone else please respond to Bill -- because Max cannot. He has no answer. So, Max will do the typical atheist/secularist thing -- and start calling us stupid, ignorant, etc.

Again, Hoob, thank you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

No problem, Bill. If it can happen to NASA, it can happen to anybody. At least your error didn't cost the tax payer billions.

quote:

Now, Max, we are talking about some humongous numbers here -- 156 billion light-years wide, trillions of stars and planets -- most of them much larger than our earth.

And, Max, you tell us that ALL OF THIS came from one little period sized singularity, object, exploding?

And yet, a Redwood tree comes from a small seed. Your ability to twist science to fit your misreading of the Bible is even more astounding than the universe beginning as a pinpoint singularity.

Once again, how did all the universe - which we know is expanding - do so in only 6000 years? How did the light from stars millions of light years away reach us in only 6000 years?

Bill, give it up. Genesis is not scientifically accurate. I know that that is catastrophic to your brand of Christianity, but it is time to come back to reality. Shake off the shackles of the weak minded, and seek true enlightenment. God will forgive your past sins without all this nonsense you falsely preach.

Actually, the size of the singularity was 10^-43 cm. Way smaller than the period. A decimal point, 42 zeroes, and a 1. Centimeter. Tiny little sucker.

And the singularity was not composed of matter, but pure energy. Which, when released by a quantum fluctuation, converted into a mix of matter and energy. Any questions?