Hi to my Forum Friends,

In another discussion, "Do You Believe In Near Death Sayings" -- my Friend, Zip, told me, "My objection against you has always been your scathing attacks on people who have legitimate questions about religion. You receive expressions of curiosity, yet return condemnation. Only your interpretation of the bible is the correct one. Anyone who questions a single jot or tittle in the bible has an express elevator ride to the infernal regions. You are an abysmal witness to the lost and seeking unless they come to you as supplicants. If they come saying, 'What about this?', your response is, 'you're going straight to hell.'"

No, my Friend, you have never seen me tell anyone they would go to hell because of the way they view the Bible. A person is saved only based upon his/her relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the only Way; and, only He can save us. If you choose to accept Him as your Lord and Savior; you are saved. If you choose to reject Him; you condemn yourself. Simple as that.

Then, Zip tells me, "I have significant, relevant, and documented doubts about the historicity of the bible. As I've said before, it is a document full of evidence of itself, which, in any rational argument, is completely worthless. You say the bible was compiled by 'inspired men,' yet you can't name them or provide any evidence documenting their inspiration. My claim is they were driven by a political agenda, supporting a government that used religion as a whip over the masses."

Not true. I can name the writers of the Bible: Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc., in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, Jude. And, yes, they were inspired -- for I am told this in 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired by God. . ."

Were they driven by a political agenda? No, they were inspired and motivated by God -- and their agenda was to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all the world. This is what we Christian believers are told to do today. Are you doing your part?

Yes, it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament looks forward to the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The New Testament looks back at His finished work on the cross.

Yet, I do have a question for you. You have told me in the past that you are a Christian and that you attend Bible studies. What do you study?

Zip tells me, "I have significant, relevant, and documented doubts about the historicity of the bible. As I've said before, it is a document full of evidence of itself, which, in any rational argument, is completely worthless."

You tell us that you doubt the Bible and that it is "completely worthless." What do you study in your Bible studies -- the life of Charles Darwin?

You say you have "documented doubts about the historicity of the bible." Please share these with us; for, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever proven the Bible to be wrong -- yet, thousands of archeological finds have proven the Bible to be right.

And, Zip tells me, "Among others, Jefferson warned about taking the bible literally. As a source of metaphorical guidance, it is good. As an expression of the example of the life of Christ, it's excellent. But your position is that the bible came straight from the mouth of God, through an anonymous collection of editors, and onto the pages of the KJV you can pick up in a bookstore. The last such sort to make such a claim was Joseph Smith, and he wound up dead, fleeing a treason arrest, in the Carthage jail."

You say you are a Christian -- do you worship God or do you worship Thomas Jefferson? God tells us to take the Bible literally, i.e., "All Scripture is inspired by God. . ." Thomas Jefferson cannot save you; God can.

Zip, you tell me, "As a source of metaphorical guidance, it is good. As an expression of the example of the life of Christ"

Spoken like a good Liberal Theology follower -- putting man-made Traditions, Rituals, and sayings -- above the Word of God. Zip, there is no authority greater than the Word of God.

You continue, "Your interpretation of the bible? I simply believe you're wrong, that's it in a nutshell. The bible is NOT to be taken as full of literal truths. It is guidance and one of the manifestations of God in this universe; yet you seem to use it as a club. 'Believe as I do or suffer the fires of hell.'"

No, the Bible is not a manifestation of God; it is the Written Word of God. As I said earlier, the Bible cannot save you -- it can only show you how to be saved. Only, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- can one be saved. But, the Bible does, indeed, point you toward salvation through Jesus Christ; and only through Him.

You tell me, "You spew hatred and call it "the Love of God" is what may be the most egregious case of Orwellian doublespeak I've run across in a while."

Please show me where I have "spewed hatred." Telling folks that they must have a relationship with Jesus Christ if they are to have eternal life in Him -- is not hate. It is loving another enough to want to see him/her have salvation in Jesus Christ. To ignore their wandering down the wrong path toward self inflicted destruction, and not warning them -- could be viewed as hatred; but, not trying to point them in His direction.

Next, Zip, you tell me, "While my beliefs are likely irrelevant to you, I personally believe God is more INCLUSIVE than He is EXCLUSIVE. 'In my house there are many mansions' may have other, alternate meanings that I doubt you could comprehend. You are stuck in a mental rut, surrounded by sycophants, and despise having your wisdom challenged."

Yes, Jesus did tell His disciples, and all Christian believers, in John 14:1-3, "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

This is His promise that He will return and Rapture His church, his body of believers from this earth. I believe that will happen before the Tribulation.

He also told us, in that same Scripture passage, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6).

And, He told us in John 3:3, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Is God being EXCLUSIVE? No, for He sent His Son to die on the cross for everyone. However, only those who, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9), invite Him into their hearts and into their lives (Revelation 3:20) to be their Lord, Savior, and Master -- will enter the kingdom of God. In that sense, He is being exclusive. You deny Him -- He will deny you!

Zip, I am not questioning your claim to be a Christian. However, I do question who and what you follow. Is it Jesus Christ? If so, then, when He tells you that He is the only WAY to the Father, why do you question Him? When He tells you that you must be born again to see the kingdom of God, i.e., to be saved; why do you question Him. And, when He, God, tells you, "All Scripture is inspired by God. . ." -- why do you question Him?

You take the sayings of Thomas Jefferson as gospel. Yet, the real Gospel, Jesus Christ -- you question. Why?

One day, Zip, you, like all of us, will stand before Jesus Christ in judgment. And, there, we will all have to answer for what we did in this life. How will you explain to Jesus Christ, standing face to face with Him -- that even though He, i.e, God, tells you that all Scripture is inspired by God -- you do not believe Him?

Zip, reading Thomas Jefferson cannot save you. Having a beer with your atheist Friend, Deep, and slamming Christians -- cannot save you. Having a true relationship with Jesus Christ will save you. Do you think that, just maybe, your priorities need to be examined? Just a thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I was born saved Bill but if you want to be born again go for it. I hear it's good for the hair.

Some of this crazy stuff you believe such as this and the rapture are a couple of hundred years old in origin. (Just saying)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ronnie P.,

quote:

Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
I was born saved Bill but if you want to be born again go for it.

Some of this crazy stuff you believe such as this and the rapture are a couple of hundred years old in origin. (Just saying)

Hi Ronnie,

You say you were born saved -- from what and to what?

Jesus tells us, in John 3:3, that we must be born again. Is He lying? Have you found another, secret, way to get into heaven?

You say that what I write about is hundreds of years old. No, it is thousands of years old -- and it will still be true into eternity.

By the way, have you made your eternal reservations yet? If not, you might want to give thought to it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Nope my view of Christianity is old and classic. It was my father's, his father's, and his father's going back generations. Can't fool me Bill. Only fundamentalists believe in your view of the rapture and being saved and you guys just sprung in the last couple of hundred years.

In closing I'd check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Bill, what's wrong did I knock over your tent pole?

quote:

Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Nope my view of Christianity is old and classic. It was my father's, his father's, and his father's going back generations. Can't fool me Bill. Only fundamentalists believe in your view of the rapture and being saved and you guys just sprung in the last couple of hundred years. In closing I'd check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Hi Ronnie,

Sorry, my Friend, but neither your father's Christianity, nor your grandfather's Christianity, nor your great-grandfather's Christianiy -- can save you. Salvation is an individual, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. You have to do it on your own.

So, once again, I ask you -- how and from what were you born saved?

Regarding fundamental Christianity, this goes back to Acts 2:42. These were the guys who taught salvation through Jesus Christ -- and no one or nothing else. The same that we teach in conservative Christians churches today.

Ronnie, you should try it some day. I am sure you will like it -- and the rewards are eternal.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Short story Jesus died for my sins and I came out a vagina. I've got pictures but I'm not sure why Willie Nelson was there. He looked at me pretty funny when I tried to get him to autograph it.

So anyway my point is my my church (and that of my forebears) has been around a long, long time and you guys probably still have your tent poles in the closet. You can twist that all you want but it doesn't negate the fact the stuff you guy's teach you alone teach and began teaching in the last 200 years. You are the 19th century Scientologists.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ronnie P.,

Hi Ronnie,

You say, "Short story Jesus died for my sins and I came out (of) a vagina."

I am not sure what church you attend. But, it sounds like the Unitarian Universalist church -- which teaches that everyone will be saved -- regardless. Ronnie, if that is what your church teaches -- I would strongly suggest you find a Jesus-centered, Bible-teaching church. For, if that is the teaching of your current church; it is not a Christian church.

Yes, Jesus Christ died so that everyone could have the opportunity to receive salvation. His death did not automatically punch your ticket into heaven. His death made the gift of salvation available to all people. But, every single person must choose to receive this free gift individually. Neither your father, nor your grandfather, can do this for you.

Jesus tells us, in Revelation 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."

This is the free gift. Jesus is standing at the door of your heart. But, you will notice that He is not opening the door. He is waiting for YOU to hear His voice and open the door. He is waiting for you to invite Him to come in and be your Lord and Savior. If you do not open that door -- you do not have salvation. Your father or your grandfather cannot open that door for you. YOU have to do it; YOU have to choose to follow Jesus Christ. Then, you can be called a Christian, a Christ Follower.

Then, you say, "So anyway my point is my church (and that of my forebears) has been around a long, long time and you guys probably still have your tent poles in the closet. You can twist that all you want but it doesn't negate the fact the stuff you guy's teach you alone teach and began teaching in the last 200 years. You are the 19th century Scientologists."

As I said earlier, what we in the conservative church teaches goes all the way back to the Day of Pentecost and the early church. I am not sure what your church teaches. Maybe you can share what your church teaches and then we can discuss the differences.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

As it is not possible to have a rational discussion with Bill, let me ask the group a question. Bill says he knows the Bible is the accurate word of God because the Bible tells him so. Would a reasonable person use a source to verify itself?

He hears what he wants to hear and ignores what he doesn't and twists the rest.

I'm done arguing with him. I feel like I stepped in ****.

I'm touched. I'm singled out in one of Bill's screeds. I may need to get an agent. I'd go through and respond to all of Bill's points, but I'm busy. I have to trim my toenails.

quote:

Originally posted by Netracer41: As it is not possible to have a rational discussion with Bill, let me ask the group a question. Bill says he knows the Bible is the accurate word of God because the Bible tells him so. Would a reasonable person use a source to verify itself?

Hi Net,

Great question! If the author of that source is a man; no, it would not be reasonable.

However -- and it is a huge however -- if the Author of that source is God Himself -- YES! Absolutely YES!

When the Author is omniscient, i.e., all knowing; how can He be wrong? Since the Author is God; how can it have errors. God does not make mistakes, nor does He ever have to say, "Oops!"

You see, Net, it is not the source of information we should consider -- but the author or Author of that source.

And, since the Author is God -- you can take it to the bank. And, if you will believe -- you can take it to the Bank of Heaven, where you can store your treasures in heaven. We are told in Matthew 6:20, "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal."

But, first you must, by grace, through faith -- believe. Take that step -- and the rest will follow.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Netracer41: As it is not possible to have a rational discussion with Bill, let me ask the group a question. Bill says he knows the Bible is the accurate word of God because the Bible tells him so. Would a reasonable person use a source to verify itself?

Hi Net,

Great question! If the author of that source is a man; no, it would not be reasonable.

However -- and it is a huge however -- if the Author of that source is God Himself -- YES! Absolutely YES!

When the Author is omniscient, i.e., all knowing; how can He be wrong? Since the Author is God; how can it have errors. God does not make mistakes, nor does He ever have to say, "Oops!"

You see, Net, it is not the source of information we should consider -- but the author or Author of that source.

And, since the Author is God -- you can take it to the bank. And, if you will believe -- you can take it to the Bank of Heaven, where you can store your treasures in heaven. We are told in Matthew 6:20, "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal."

But, first you must, by grace, through faith -- believe. Take that step -- and the rest will follow.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill,
Once again you are using circular logic, just as Net stated before. It is insane to try to verify ANYTHING by using itself as proof. The only verification you have of God being all knowing or the author of the Bible, is the Bible itself. Something simply CANNOT verify itself. That defies all logic and reason and borders on mental illness.

quote:

As it is not possible to have a rational discussion with Bill, let me ask the group a question. Bill says he knows the Bible is the accurate word of God because the Bible tells him so. Would a reasonable person use a source to verify itself?

No. It's important to understand the historical significance and accuracy of the work or works.

The Bible is not one work by one author, it's a compilation of 66 works by approximately 40 different authors over the span of several thousand years. Each work in itself is translated from thousands of pieces of ancient documents, each cross checked with others for accuracy. The 27 books of the New Testament is translated from about 5,600 different texts with 99% accuracy.

Once the historical significance and accuracy has been established, it's up to each individual reader to learn if the 40 different authors are just witting stories or if there is a deeper and more significant meaning.

By the way, you'll have more luck debating a brick wall than with Bill. He doesn't care what you or I have to say, just with what he has to say.

Good post Nash Bama!