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Kind of like you guys with atheism....That's a religion to me. Athiest worship science and randomness and nothingness. Athiest worship the very idea that God doesn't exist. Athiest teach faith in science, randomness, and nothingness. Athiest go out into the world spreading this religion. Would you disagree with that?

Peter, I must disagree with that, because it's all wrong.

Atheism is not a religion. It's lack of belief in religion. There are no necessary beliefs to be an atheist.

First, the concept of "worship" is rather odd. I don't understand how it is applied to science or anything non-religious. There are atheists who are completely ignorant about science and have no opinions about it.

The randomness of DNA mutation occurs, but that's where randomness stops. If you've kept up in even the most rudimentary way with modern cosmology, you will see that the universe is highly ordered out of random components. I submit that religion is the true worship of nothingness: There is nothing to support it. No evidence whatever.

An atheist is under no compulsion at all to declare "god does not exist". Worshiping this negative statement is absurd, and does not happen.

Again, however, we come to a point of agreement. Many atheists, such as Mr. Bill's favorites Dawkins and Hitchens, believe that religion is a negative influence on 21st Century mankind. They have a point. Take the issue of Creationism/ID for example. It's demonstrably wrong. It did not happen that way, and we all know it, but certain religious people insist that the lie is true.

Lying is bad enough, and a poor reflection on religion, but the underlying philosophy that an ancient revealed superstition supersedes modern, evidential science is simply wicked. The C/ID proponents would confuse children about all sorts of sciences, and congratulate themselves. When liars and their lies are held up as admirable, then I'll leave it to you to determine the worth of the value system involved.

DF

The polar opposite of theism is humanism, at least IMHO. DF, you and Fish are the only admitted atheists I know. But you seem to have character, which is a trait definitely not reserved for christians. I know way too many christians I would not leave an unattended wallet or wife around. I think when it comes to choosing friends, shooting or flying partners, drinking buddies, or people to hang around with, I'm pretty sure that character trumps belief systems; at least in my circle.

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Originally posted by NashBama:

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Could god have performed a miracle, like in the bible and healed her? Saved her life?

Yes.

Why would he deny her?

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Originally posted by NashBama:
I do believe God's miracles are happening today.

And not one amputee?

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And not one amputee?

Amputees receive prosthetics. They are improving all the time. Sure, you could say that prosthetics are the product of human ingenuity and technology. The question is where did we get such an intellect where someone with no legs could walk freely? Why are we the only animals that developed such an intellect while others did not?

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Why would he deny her?

As I've said before, there is no way of knowing. My guess is to save the life of others.

This story made national news. This is quite a wake up call for parents who may be in a similar situation. This may be what they needed to take themselves and their children out of such cults.

If the death of one child saved the lives of 1000 more, would it be worth it?

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GoFish, I bet if your child was terminally ill and you had exhausted every medical possibility, that even you would try a prayer.
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No reply??
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If gofish had a child who was terminally ill, I'd offer a prayer. I might not tell him about it, but I'd offer it. As well as whatever strength and support I could.

And I'd be double-d####d sure to leave his belief system out of it.

Can someone please explain to me how this thread & COUNTLESS others turns into expecting believers to explain themselves and their beliefs to those that do not believe?

Judging from what has been said, NONE of the believers on this forum would allow their child to die. Not one believer has agreed with these two people letting their child die.

We ALL AGREE that these two should be held accountable for this crime & hope the rest of their children are removed from their home.

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GoFish, I bet if your child was terminally ill and you had exhausted every medical possibility, that even you would try a prayer.

I would never say that I am immune to irrationality. Such an illness would likely drive me to do many things that I normally would not do including prayer and attempting to sell my soul to the devil.

But as long as I have my wits about me, no, I would not waste an instant in beaming mind-waves to the Creator.

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W
Those who believe in God and miracles are intellectually inferior, so the fact that their offspring won't be contaminating the gene pool is a good thing, right? Isn't that beneficial to the species? Isn't that natural selection in action? The more people like her and her parents that die off, the better future generations will be, right?

If we're nothing more than intelligent primates driven by the laws of nature, then you shouldn't care about that little girl. You don't know her, you don't know her family, her living or dying has no impact on your ability to survive or pass down your genes. So why do you care that she died?

I just don't know how to respond to such callousness.

So I wont.

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I think when it comes to choosing friends, shooting or flying partners, drinking buddies, or people to hang around with, I'm pretty sure that character trumps belief systems; at least in my circle.

As in mine, Zip. Thanks. The respect is mutual, I assure you.

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Can someone please explain to me how this thread & COUNTLESS others turns into expecting believers to explain themselves and their beliefs to those that do not believe?

Just trying to make sense of the senseless death of a child, Joy. Perhaps by illuminating the insanity and callousness, a parent considering such stupidity will think twice?

Nah, I don't think so either but it's nice to contemplate.

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GoFish, I bet if your child was terminally ill and you had exhausted every medical possibility, that even you would try a prayer.



I would never say that I am immune to irrationality. Such an illness would likely drive me to do many things that I normally would not do including prayer and attempting to sell my soul to the devil.

But as long as I have my wits about me, no, I would not waste an instant in beaming mind-waves to the Creator.

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I think the love of your child would drive you to try any means possible to save him/her. In fact, I suspect there is a part of you that knows He is real but you are fighting to deny it...otherwise you would not spend so much time arguing about it. It's almost like you are manifesting an internal battle within your own heart.
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Deep,
I appreciate your attempt, as intellectual it was, to try to convince me that atheism isnt a religion. But nothing you said flies. Atheism is the absence of belief in a GOD BASED RELIGION. To say there are no religions beside God based ones is completely false. Those crackheads that thought the comet was gonna pick them up and drank the poison cool aid...that was a religious cult that had nothing to do with God. Charles Manson was the leader of a religious cult that had nothing to do with God.
My point was, there are now evangelical atheist. It is no longer good enough for them to not believe in God, they must now yell out from the mountaintops to convince everyone else that they are idiots for believing. That is religion my friend. Now I understand if you don't want to be put in that category because it takes some of the cool factor out of it, but that's fact. Your group has faith, worship, and preaching just like my Southern Baptist Church. What we have faith in, what we worship, and what we preach about just happens to be polar opposites.

To preface this, I am not an atheist!!! This is just a response to What4

What4
I have no problem with what you are saying. I had those same beliefs for most of my life. If I'm wrong now then I'm wrong, but in further study of the Bible I found that the "spiritual warfare" that was evident throughout faded away.(demonic possesions, angels on earth, God speaking audibly)
I put that together with what I see today. Personal choice ruins folks today. I would never give a low-life the justification of demonic possession when they do horrible things.
Also, I would never question the faith with which someone prays. If God's hand actually performs miracles today, why does he pick and choose which prayers are "good enough" to be answered? How can 2 families, both faith filled Christians pray for healing for a child(both same sickness), both also take every earthly avenue(medical) available, yet one is healed and the other dies a horrible death, suffering all the way to the end? Is it becaue one didn't pray quite hard enough??? And I know the ready made answer to these questions...."If the child dies then it was God's will." How about that is the most overused answer in the history of Christianity. Sometimes that answer is enough, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes we as Christians need to be at the forefront in saying that we live in a fallen creation, because of that horrible things will happen that have no explanation. I know the feelgood answers like the one I mentioned earlier and the "the child is with God now." I really don't have a problem with that...whatever eases pain of loss. But to me that leaves a bigger question...why would it be God's will that one die and one live? If His word and will could be told thru the death of one, why not both?
What I dislike about it is the false hope of God the magician. No doubt the He CAN do these things, I just don't think He DOES. To say He is the same now as always is misleading....Throughout the Bible God's approach to the earth and humans changes. Not the general message, but His approach. That fact evident in the life and death of Jesus.
If God "never changes" then we would still be sacraficing lambs to stay in his good graces, there would be no need for Jesus to ever step foot on earth.
God would audibly tell George Bush to erase these terrorists from the earth.(I'm pro-that by the way, just so there is not confusion) That's how He handled those things in the Old Testament.
God wouldve already destroyed(never to return) places like San Francisco, Las Vegas, New Orleans....i.e. Sodom and Gomora.
Things just aren't the same....the only thing I can figure is the missing component is God's direct touch, or intervention in the world.
If faith of a mustard seed could move a mountain then I'd be Spider-man right now(that was my favorite prayer as a kid......ok, still is ;>
I don't think you're foolish for your belief, and I could be wrong....I'm just still trying to move forward in my learning. I don't want to be stagnent intellectually about God and the Bible. If I'm overthinkin it then I'll come back down someday.