quote:

Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
To preface this, I am not an atheist!!! This is just a response to What4

What4
I have no problem with what you are saying. I had those same beliefs for most of my life. If I'm wrong now then I'm wrong, but in further study of the Bible I found that the "spiritual warfare" that was evident throughout faded away.(demonic possesions, angels on earth, God speaking audibly)
I put that together with what I see today. Personal choice ruins folks today. I would never give a low-life the justification of demonic possession when they do horrible things.
Also, I would never question the faith with which someone prays. If God's hand actually performs miracles today, why does he pick and choose which prayers are "good enough" to be answered? How can 2 families, both faith filled Christians pray for healing for a child(both same sickness), both also take every earthly avenue(medical) available, yet one is healed and the other dies a horrible death, suffering all the way to the end? Is it becaue one didn't pray quite hard enough??? And I know the ready made answer to these questions...."If the child dies then it was God's will." How about that is the most overused answer in the history of Christianity. .....

Well, about the only thing we agree on is that God's will is an overly used expression. I still hold that the word of God is true. I believe in demons, but I agree that not evey sin is to be blamed on demons or evil spirits, because our own fleshly nature has much to do with it. I don't believe as some do today that the evil spirits that Jesus cast out were nothing more than sicknesses. I remind those who believe that way that Jesus talked to the demons and they talked back. Sicknesses don't talk. Demons are real, and the spiritual forces against Christians are real. I also believe that we have much more authoriy over the forces of evil than we often realize. The name of Jesus is powerful, and those who stand strong on God's promises by faith, can take authority over the enemy. Faith or lack of faith may not be the simple answer every time, and I don't mean to imply that. But the fact is that we as Christians are weak. We as a whole have our attention on most everything but God, and many only go to Him when things get so bad that He is their only option. I don't have all the answers, but I have yet to discard God's word in my quest for understanding. I have stood on God's word and I have seen some amazing things in my life. When we begin to progress in our thinking to the point that we ignore God's word, we have progressed in the wrong direction. Faith mixed with love, knowledge, obedience, and understanding of God's word, is a powerful combination. I personally desire that all those ingredients work in my life. They'll never work if I set out on my own journey in seek of my own truth. Everybody's personal truth varies from person to person. I believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I'll hear Him and attempt to get my thinking in line with His.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: what4,

quote:

I suspect there is a part of you that knows He is real but you are fighting to deny it..

Lynn, I assure you that I do not have "faith" in an omnipotent space alien. I just don't. Not even a little. None.

That is a very good thing; I will never be susceptible to harming a child over my atheism.

quote:

I appreciate your attempt, as intellectual it was, to try to convince me that atheism isnt a religion. But nothing you said flies. Atheism is the absence of belief in a GOD BASED RELIGION.

Is your disbelief of Santa Clause or Easter Bunny or Elfs a "religion"? Of course not. Peter, atheism is simply an absence of belief in a supernatural being.

To paraphrase someone smarter than I: We are both atheists with respect to easter bunnies, Thor, Zeus and Yahweh. I simply believe in one less god than you.

quote:

What I dislike about it is the false hope of God the magician. No doubt the He CAN do these things, I just don't think He DOES

Then, rationally, once can one conclude that, just as the man who stands by the bathtub whistling Dixie while his child drowns, god is malevolent.

quote:

I just don't know how to respond to such callousness.

So I wont.

It's a pretty simple question.

For someone who believes that natural selection is the answer for everything, why do you care that this little girl died?

For someone who believes Christians aren't as intelligent as atheists, why do you consider this event a tragedy instead of a benefit?

Think about it, if more Christians rejected health care and died off, Christianity would eventually disappear. So why are you so upset by the death of this little girl? Isn't this natural selection in action?

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
I don't see why the atheists are so upset about this girl dying. It seems to me they should be celebrating.
[...]
So atheists should be celebrating, this is one less unintelligent person to dilute the gene pool.

Nash,

I am an atheist, not a sociopath.

Please learn more about both if you are prone to such confusion.

e

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:

It's a pretty simple question.

For someone who believes that natural selection is the answer for everything, why do you care that this little girl died?

For someone who believes Christians aren't as intelligent as atheists, why do you consider this event a tragedy instead of a benefit?

Think about it, if more Christians rejected health care and died off, Christianity would eventually disappear. So why are you so upset by the death of this little girl? Isn't this natural selection in action?

It's not so much a simple question (or questions) as it is a very simple illustration of a straw man fallacy on your part, Nash.

quote:

It's not so much a simple question (or questions) as it is a very simple illustration of a straw man fallacy on your part,

It's a perfectly legitimate question, not a straw man at all.

Why do you care?

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:

quote:

It's not so much a simple question (or questions) as it is a very simple illustration of a straw man fallacy on your part,

It's a perfectly legitimate question, not a straw man at all.

Nash, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.

Your agumentative strategy included asserting a "False Dilemma" that served as a straw man.

In this particular case, the one thing your argument gained as a result of that combination was an ad hominem attack that only serves to weaken it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: e,

I know what a straw man and a false delima are. This is not a straw man argument.

Looking at previous posts on this thread, atheists and non-atheists agree, including myself, that the parents of this child were incredibly stupid.

Natural selection says that those with favorable traits, such as intelligence, will reproduce. Those with less favorable traits, such as stupidity, will die out.

The Darwin Awards for example, stupid people getting killed for something stupid. This removes their genes from the species allowing smarter people to pass their traits.

From their own web page. "The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who accidentally remove themselves from it..."

So if the belief of God is shared by those who are not as smart as atheists, and the offspring of those less intelligent is removed from the gene pool, that benefits the species and is a good thing, right?

So where is the fallicy?

I'm curious. If science says that a person should die, all their evidence points to this natural end, but then the patient is healed, how do you explain that? How do those of you that do not believe in miracles or God explain this? Is it explainable through Science?

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
I know what a straw man and a false delima are. This is not a straw man argument.

Looking at previous posts on this thread, atheists and non-atheists agree, including myself, that the parents of this child were incredibly stupid.

Natural selection says that those with favorable traits, such as intelligence, will reproduce. Those with less favorable traits, such as stupidity, will die out.

The Darwin Awards for example, stupid people getting killed for something stupid. This removes their genes from the species allowing smarter people to pass their traits.

From their own web page. "The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who accidentally remove themselves from it..."

So if the belief of God is shared by those who are not as smart as atheists, and the offspring of those less intelligent is removed from the gene pool, that benefits the species and is a good thing, right?

So where is the fallicy?

You understanding of natural selection is way over simplified. If a genetic trait causes no harm to the organism in question the organism continues to reproduce. Religion has in the past served to organize in groups toward a common goal. Now with global communication/travel as easily done religious group interact more. Will religion die out? Who know.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
If God's hand actually performs miracles today, why does he pick and choose which prayers are "good enough" to be answered? How can 2 families, both faith filled Christians pray for healing for a child(both same sickness), both also take every earthly avenue(medical) available, yet one is healed and the other dies a horrible death, suffering all the way to the end?

Peter, I question that same thing, & still have not found an answer & no one can give me an answer to my satisfaction.

Is it becaue one didn't pray quite hard enough??? And I know the ready made answer to these questions...."If the child dies then it was God's will." How about that is the most overused answer in the history of Christianity.

God's will. I so hate those words...

why would it be God's will that one die and one live? If His word and will could be told thru the death of one, why not both?

Exactly!! Another question that cannot be answered to my satisfaction.

Peter, you said:

quote:

Atheism is the absence of belief in a GOD BASED RELIGION

That is not accurate. Atheism is the absence of a belief in a god or gods. NOT religion. Religion exists, even god-based religions. We can see them everywhere. According to your statement, I would have to say the Baptists do not exist. They do.

Now, you do make a point that people can act religious about non-religious things. North Korea is a very religious country: They worship their Great Leader, Kim il-Sung, and his son, Dear Leader, Kim Jong il. Those evil men are revered as the bringers of every little thing that makes their miserable lives possible, and hatred for them is responsible for all ills. But there are no gods involved.

There are also religions, sort of, that do not have gods, such as Buddhism and Taoism. They may admit to some Cosmic Force, but they do not pretend to understand it.

Peter, it's really quite simple. Atheists do not believe in gods. There are no other qualifications. There are no services, no holy texts, no prophets, no rituals, no magic.

Luckily, we live in an age when it's OK to be an atheist. In the recent past, atheists were deemed evil and persecuted, often to death. You must understand that some people cannot invest their senses of reality in gods that insist on being unknown, unseeable, intangible, immaterial, and indifferent.

The better question than "why atheists?" is "why religious?"

DF

Joy,

This entire thread is about the death of an innocent, salvageable little girl who was effectively murdered in the practice of religion.

It's THE perfect opportunity to re-examine the worth of the institution.

DF