quote:

You understanding of natural selection is way over simplified. If a genetic trait causes no harm to the organism in question the organism continues to reproduce. Religion has in the past served to organize in groups toward a common goal. Now with global communication/travel as easily done religious group interact more. Will religion die out? Who know.

Lack of intelligence causes harm to the organism. Again, look at the Darwin awards.

Hitchens and Dawkins have made it very clear that religion is harmful and only the weak minded adhere to religion. Those on this board who hold Hitchens and Dawkins in such high regard have made it clear that they agree with the notion that religion is harmful and only the weak minded adhere to it.

If the girl had lived to adulthood, she most likely would have reproduced and taught her children about God, which some have referenced as a form of child abuse.

So not only has her death proved that natural selection is working by eliminating those of lesser intelligence, but it has also taken a future child abuser. It seems to me that naturalists who have such contempt for religion and religious people would consider this a benefit, not a tragedy.

So my question again, why are atheists so bothered by this girl's death?

Nash,

I'm surprised at you.

First, Dawkins and Hitchens never said religion is only for the weak minded. That is obviously not the case.

Second, atheists are not any more or less moral than anybody else. To imply that atheists should shrug off this little girl's needless death is an insult and a display of ignorance for which you should be ashamed.

DF

quote:

First, Dawkins and Hitchens never said religion is only for the weak minded. That is obviously not the case.

Second, atheists are not any more or less moral than anybody else. To imply that atheists should shrug off this little girl's needless death is an insult and a display of ignorance for which you should be ashamed.

Dawkins:
"To describe religions as mind viruses is sometimes interpreted as contemptuous or even hostile. It is both."

Hitchens:
"However, along with Islam and Christianity, it does insist that some turgid and contradictory and sometimes evil and mad texts, obviously written by fairly unexceptional humans, are in fact the word of god. I think that the indispensible condition of any intellectual liberty is the realisation that there is no such thing."

Those are just a few statements. You and I both know that both Hitchens and Dawkins dislike religion and religious people. It's made them both quite a bit of money in book sales. They clearly feel that those who believe in God are less intelligent.

This has nothing to do with morality, it's simply examining a clear case of natural selection. Let's say that little girl grew up, believed in God, and posted her beliefs on this message board. She would be called ignorant, stupid, a liar, and child abuser for teaching her children the Bible.

We know this to be fact because of the statements made about myself and others who aren't afraid to express what we believe.

With natural selection at work, that's one less ignorant, lying, stupid person in the human race. She will never breed other stupid, ignorant, lying people. She will never abuse any children by teaching them the Bible. She will never brainwash anyone by converting them to Christianity.

Since Christianity and religion are so vile, this is a benefit for all mankind. The more religious people that kill themselves or their offspring like this, the closer the human race is to casting aside childish things and evolving past religion. Am I right?

Still, no one has addressed my question. Why do you care that a stranger born to intellectually inferior parents died?

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
Still, no one has addressed my question. Why do you care that a stranger born to intellectually inferior parents died?

I care because I don't see that child as stupid for believing what her parents told her. I care because I am a genuinely caring person (without the need of a bible or preacher or congregation telling me to be so). I care because an innocent child died due to the ignorance and negligence of her parents. That ignorance and negligence can be directly attributed to their belief in a god.

Just because I (and I am sure others as well) don't believe in your fairy tales of a all mighty god, doesn't mean I don't have a heart.

I think if you would stop being a smart@ss for just a minute and actually read what people are writing, you will see that the problem atheists are having with this is the fact that if these people didn't believe in your fairy tales of miracles and a caring god, this little girl could have gotten the help she needed.

And to address the ridiculous assertion that atheists think her death actually helped cleanse the gene pool, most atheists were actually born to "god fearing" people. Intelligence isn't something you can take away, you either have it or you don't. This little girl could have potentially grown up and actually developed the ability to think for herself and using rationale and logic could have figured out that your fairy tales were as real as santa on her own.

We'll never know, but I guess your god had a plan for her huh? I'm sure her god fearing parents understand her sacrifice.

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
Still, no one has addressed my question. Why do you care that a stranger born to intellectually inferior parents died?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fineazell1:
I think if you would stop being a smart@ss for just a minute and actually read what people are writing, you will see that the problem atheists are having with this is the fact that if these people didn't believe in your fairy tales of miracles and a caring god, this little girl could have gotten the help she needed.

Why would you call Nash a smartass for giving his opinion? Should I say the same about you because of your opinion?

This little girl could have potentially grown up and actually developed the ability to think for herself and using rationale and logic could have figured out that your fairy tales were as real as santa on her own.

This little girl could have potentially grown up and actually developed the ability to think for herself & realize that God does indeed exist.


We'll never know, but I guess your god had a plan for her huh? I'm sure her god fearing parents understand her sacrifice.

Hopefully her parents realized that God gave them common sense & they should have used it & gotten medical help for her.

What happened to you to make you hate God so much that you proclaim he doesn't exist?

quote:

Just because I (and I am sure others as well) don't believe in your fairy tales of a all mighty god, doesn't mean I don't have a heart.

You're sort of getting it, but I think you're focus is anger at me instead of the point I'm making.

Question: Why would someone who believes we are the result of natural selection be bothered by the death of a stranger?

Answer: Life has value.

Regardless of our personal beliefs, we were all deeply disturbed by this tragic wasted life. Her death was preventable, yet nothing was done.

We all put ourselves in her place. We imagined the suffering she went through. We felt how much pain she was in. We felt sympathy for her, a sense of loss, and anger at such a preventable tragedy. Why?

Life has value.

This concept violates natural selection. Birds will kick unhealthy chicks from the nest. Pack animals will sometimes kill injured members that slow the pack down. Yet, humans care for it's sick and weak. We spend huge amounts of resources to do so which does not benefit the species as a whole. It goes against the concept of natural selection. Why?

Life has value.

Proof of this is how people reacted when I confronted them with the example of natural selection. People were angry and offended by the very idea that this girl's death would be beneficial. Yet, to truly adhere to natural selection means that when the offspring of the less intelligent dies, it benefits the intelligent. Even those who claim natural selection as the answer to everything disagreed with that. Why?

Life has value.

So here's another question.

What gives life it's value?

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
Still, no one has addressed my question. Why do you care that a stranger born to intellectually inferior parents died?

Ok Nash, I'll try.

I care that the girl died because I have genuine compassion for people (especially helpless ones) and a love for life.

Now, the fact that you've posed this question directly to atheists indicates that there must be a difference between our reasons and yours. So, if you don't share my love and compassion for the child, what is YOUR reason? DO you care? If so, is it only because God tells you that you should?

I understand that you're trying to compare this girl's death to a theory you don't believe in. That's fine, but you're missing a key component. Ignorance doesn't happen to be a hereditary. We're all born that way, and with help, overcome it. Religion... not hereditary. Stupidity? Possibly, as some genetic defects that may result in lower intelligence can be passed on. But does even a profoundly retarded child automatically become religious? Of course not.

I think this poor girl had a very good chance to grow into a thoughtful rational adult, even if her parents had not, for whatever reason. As fineaz said, many do.

One more thing... if I DID believe this girl fell prey to natural selection (which, again, I don't) I would STILL care, because I find any loss of life to be tragic. I know her life ended long before it should have, and I won't comfort myself with any delusion that she's gone to a "better place". These people DID have a "mental virus", and I'm only thankful there is a readily available cure for those who willing to accept it.

quote:

I care that the girl died because I have genuine compassion for people (especially helpless ones) and a love for life.

Exactly. Life has value.

Please read my last post.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

I appreciate your attempt, as intellectual it was, to try to convince me that atheism isnt a religion. But nothing you said flies. Atheism is the absence of belief in a GOD BASED RELIGION.

Is your disbelief of Santa Clause or Easter Bunny or Elfs a "religion"? Of course not. Peter, atheism is simply an absence of belief in a supernatural being.

To paraphrase someone smarter than I: We are both atheists with respect to easter bunnies, Thor, Zeus and Yahweh. I simply believe in one less god than you.

If you would quit cherry pickin my posts you'd see that I explained that. I don't believe in Santa....but I also don't go blue in the face attempting to disprove his existence...I don't have faith in anything that would disprove his existence...and I don't preach from the mountaintops hoping to convert others who may believe in his existence. If God is a myth, then why do you spend so much time trying to disprove a myth. Why not just shut up and enjoy the peace in your heart of knowing that nothingness and randomness is all there ever is and all there ever will be....why be evangelical? That's the difference there. You, just as most modern day athiest are evangelical athiests....that's ya'll's religion.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
Joy,

This entire thread is about the death of an innocent, salvageable little girl who was effectively murdered in the practice of religion.

It's THE perfect opportunity to re-examine the worth of the institution.

DF

If you are referring only to those who feel that the only help they can give their child is a prayer when they have available medical help then I agree with you. But I will not throw away a trailer full of apples because I find one that has a worm in it. And I certainly won’t throw away all good fruit just because there are fruits that are sour or bitter. You pride yourself as a man of intelligence. However, I will not frown on all intelligent people, simply because one person claiming to be intelligent has made a foolish or irrational conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
There is no telling how many lives your persuasion of thought has destroyed. Your institution robs people of hope and reduces the quality of a human being's life to nothing more than a worm that has evolved a bit further on the evolution scale. To the atheist, human life is no more sacred than any other life. Life loses its value and people of your persuasion often see life as a game of the strong against the weak. Many of your persuasion are arrogant, feeling that they are superior, and scoff at those who don't see life as they do. Kids take up guns and kill for the fun of it, because they feel that life has no purpose or value. My friend, you have no basis to imply that your institution of so-called intelligent free thinkers has a better record than those who believe in and worship God. Your persuasion does nothing to improve life or the quality of life in this world, and it destroys the hope of real life after this world. There is nothing good in being an atheist, unless it is to remove all responsibility and accountability, leaving you more free to do as you please without any concern for the final consequences. You and others call that freedom and exhilaration. I call it living a lie. Atheists might talk of freedom, but they are nothing more than dead men walking.

Wow.

Please understand that this is coming from someone you'd never suspect to be an atheist if we met casually. I'd be the guy who'd stop in the rain and help you push your stalled car out of the road, or help you change a flat. I'd help you in the checkout line if you came up a dollar short, or call out if I saw you drop one. I've overheard more than one person describe me as "good Christian", and I can't describe how it made my heart sink to realize my own compassion made no impact, but only my supposed religion.

I don't CARE what spiritual belief someone may have if they aren't using it as an excuse to put me down. You are making it clear that you're not someone I'd care to interact with on ANY level. Religion aside, you seem arrogant and judgemental.

You and your kind are exactly what drove me away my faith of over 25 years. You spew hate under the guise of God's love. I finally came to the realization that I'd been carefully trained to fear and loath people who didn't embrace my ideas about God. Good people.

I alone am responsible for my actions. If I hurt someone, the fact is I may never be forgiven. We are all the products of our own thoughts and actions, good or bad. What could be a greater incentive to be a good person than the realization that this beautiful thing we call life is our one and only shot at experiencing and sharing joy?

Anyway, if this is how you win souls, good luck with it.

To dialectic:
This is a quote that I said in that post that I primarily apologize for. .…….
people of your persuasion often see life as a game of the strong against the weak. Many of your persuasion are arrogant, feeling that they are superior, and scoff at those who don't see life as they do. ……
Even though I said MANY, and not ALL, I still felt bad that I said that. It served no purpose but was actually a personal attack that should have never been stated. I agree that I was wrong. It is true that atheists have attacked others and me in an arrogant manner. I have suffered barb after barb from atheists and I have occasionally let my guard down and returned comments that were probably just as bad. I have been labeled a Neanderthal who has yet to crawl out of his cave because I believe that God is our creator. The arrogant and belittling attitude that I have seen in atheists may not be common among most or even many atheists, but it certainly seems common among some of the most outspoken professing atheists who post on these forums. I have not followed all of your posts to see if you are that way or not. You may very well have a different spirit, so I especially apologize to you for my sweeping judgmental comment and personal attack. I was out of line. As a matter of fact I thought about that after I wrote it and went back and deleted the entire post. You obviously were responding to it while I deleted it. Had you not responded to it, it would not be here now. I was wrong for making personal attacks, but I was not wrong in what I stated as harm caused by the atheistic philosophy. But I also agree, that the whole spirit of the post did nothing to further the cause of Christ. Again, I felt that way before your response and had already deleted the entire post. All I can do now is say to you that I’m sorry, and try to get my foot out of my mouth.

By the way, I don't ask people whom I help on the side of the road if they are atheists or not. And I have yet to make a judgment if somebody is an atheist by their attitude. I don't know, but atheists may be no better or worse than the common man as far as morals are concerned. Mostly what determines a person's character is their raising and their inborn inherited traits. You may have been raised in a home where your parents took you to church and believed in God. You may have had many friends growing up who were Christians. A person's environment has a huge impact on a person's character. But if a person is raised in an environment where they feel that society owes them, or if they already feel somewhat unaccepted by society, then the athiestic philosophy could be all that it takes to push them over the edge. I repeat, there is nothing good in this philosophy. People are not pushed to examine themselves and they are not encouraged to set higher goals of morality or honor by their atheistic philosophy. A person might be a decent person in spite of being an atheist, but it will not be becaue they are an atheist.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: what4,

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
Those are just a few statements. You and I both know that both Hitchens and Dawkins dislike religion and religious people. It's made them both quite a bit of money in book sales. They clearly feel that those who believe in God are less intelligent.

No one would dispute the fact that Kitches, Dawins, Deep , e or myself think religion is unnecessary, quite often evil, and sometimes stupid. I do not beleive you will here any of us say that people who adhere to religion are stupid. They sometimes are. I'm sure there are some atheists who are stupid. However, now that you bring it up, there is a strong inverse correlation between religiosity and education level. There are some studies that suggest a strong link between IQ and atheism.

I do not know the educational background of the parents of the poor girl mentioned in this article but I would be very surprised if one of both were college graduates.

quote:

Since Christianity and religion are so vile, this is a benefit for all mankind. The more religious people that kill themselves or their offspring like this, the closer the human race is to casting aside childish things and evolving past religion. Am I right? Why do you care that a stranger born to intellectually inferior parents died?

Your utter lack of understanding on this matter is blinding, Nash. Your callousness and insensitivity is unprecedented. I have not answered you because your (and What4's) evilness and vileness so disturbed me that I had to step away from this form for a couple of days. However, I've told you there is no question I would not answer, Nash. So I will.

First, you must understand that prsonality traits have a genetic basis. Yes, there is the "nature versus nurture" debate but nature (genetics) obviously has a very strong effect on our personalities.

Studies have shown that an "itch" for god is a universal train among humans. "Religiosity" or belief in something without evidence, is a survival trait that likely developed millions of years ago in the one of the common ancestors of apes and man. The "belief" of a child that his mom is correct when she says, "Do not swim in that water or you will die," is an example.

Now, if one accepts that religion has a genetic basis and is a survival train, then one understands that taking away that trait could be detrimental. There are likely numerous other positive traits associated with the "belief" gene that are very beneficial. I need to "beleive" that my boss (if I had one) will treat me well if I do a good job, for example, if I wish to accumulate material wealth. Material wealth might make me more alluring to the opposite sex which makes me more likely to copulate and reproduce.

This kind of deep-rooted belief could not be evolved out of the human race even if we wanted to, Nash.

The bottom line is that there is a genetic basis for religiosity as a survival trait that likely could not be weeded out of the population even if some wanted to. Therefore, the notion of "science" applauding the demise of innocent children is simply absurd. The Darwin Awards are a joke not - not to be taken as serious science.

Now, to finally answer the question, the parents were stupid. I would not care if they departed this earth all by themselves. The thousand people who drank kool-aid at the command of Jim Jones were idiots but the innocent children who still had a chance at being productive members of the human race are to be pitied.

The little girl was young enough to have a chance at life, Nash, but was murdered by stupidity.

I compassionate human can't help but feel sorrow over the loss. You lack of pity os quite disturbing and sociopathic.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Guffaw,

quote:

Life has value. So here's another question.
What gives life it's value?

Uhhh, Jaysus?

Obviously the atheists on this forum value life even more than you. What in the heck are you insinuating?

quote:

I was not wrong in what I stated as harm caused by the atheistic philosophy.

Question: Has any one of the atheists here suggested that our Thought Mafia is on the way to your house right now to torture you and your child unless you started thinking rationally? You make that same threat to us in nearly every post, What4. You simply do it with a smile on your face and a pat on the back.

When you understand the stupidity and offensiveness of that threat, you will understand why I attack your beliefs.