what4,

Miami's post wasn't about what you believe. It's about helping you educate yourself about that which you profess to know.

You speak of the Bible and your faith with a tone of authority. Generally speaking, those are topics I feel you can speak to with reasonable knowledge.

However, until you have the ability to wrap your cortex around the very simple yet critical difference between a belief of absence and that of an absence of belief, I suggest you not venture into professing knowledge of atheism.

You would be wise to accept miami's offer and read the Harris passage. Just consider it an educational opportunity. You don't mind learning, do you? Then, perhaps, you will be a step closer to understanding what it means to be "an atheist."

Here's one more clue:

atheism:religion :: bald:hair color

e

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
fineazell1, why do you have this at the bottom of all your post? I'm just curious.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Roofing Addic:
LOL....Ole Gus....You never seem to amaze me....

It is my signature. I found it funny that Gus never "SEEMED" to amaze ole roofer.

hopefully you know why that is funny to me.

quote:

Originally posted by e:
what4,

Miami's post wasn't about you. It's about helping you educate yourself about that which you profess to know.

You speak of the Bible and your faith with a tone of authority. Generally speaking, those are topics I feel you can speak to with reasonable knowledge.

However, until you have the ability to wrap your cortex around the very simple yet critical difference between a belief of absence and that of an absence of belief, I suggest you not venture into professing knowledge of atheism.

You would be wise to accept miami's offer and read the Harris passage. Just consider it an educational opportunity. You don't mind learning, do you? Then, perhaps, you will be a step closer to understanding what it means to be "an atheist."

Here's one more clue:

atheism:religion :: bald:hair color

e

e, I have had doubts just like everybody else. I know how people can wonder if there is a God. I went through a long time in my life where I had no assurance whatsoever. I don't have to be taught how not to believe. Yet, if I doubted that God existed now, after all that God has done in my life, I would be a fool. I'm not telling you that I know that God exists because this universe exists or because we as complicated human beings exist, even though that in itself helps to prove His existence. I'm telling you for a fact that God exists because He has intervened in my life at least 9 times that defy coincidence. With one time I would have great confidence. But with 9 times or more, I would be a fool to doubt Him. Moses knew for a fact that God existed. The apostles and many in the early church knew for a fact that Jesus existed and that He performed many miracles. There may be things that I don't understand, but I can't throw away what I know is true because of things I have yet to understand. The only way that you could convince me that Jesus is not alive and that He is not able to hear and answer my prayers, in ways that only God can do them, would be in giving me shock treatments to make me forget my past. I can only testify according to what I know is true.

If you want to choose to believe what you choose to believe and ignore others, and me, then that is your prerogative. But if you took a few minutes and thought about the complicated person you are with all of your abilities, and look at the complex make up of your individual organs and how they have only one purpose and perform that purpose in unison with many other organs that have only one purpose, the idea that all of that can evolve on its own and then come together and work by accident defies impossible odds. There is plenty of evidence that God exists. The question is which God is real. I have found one that is real. I put my total trust in Him. I trust in no other. You can trust in random chance if you want. I couldn't trust in that even if Jesus had never intervened in my life and proved that He was real.

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
That "lack of faith" thing is the answer I always get which is no answer, at least not to my satisfaction.
Remember the "faith of a mustard seed"??? You ever seen a mustard seed?

Tac, a mustard seed is not a small faith but a huge faith. It is small in size but look what it becomes. It believes in spite of what it sees, and has no doubt that it can accomplish its goal. It has also been referred to as a growing faith that begins small, yet in the end it grows to the point that birds nest in it’s branches. If we do not use what faith we have it will not grow. Yet as we believe God, and we get a history behind us of seeing God work in the small things that we ask Him for, then we get encouraged and become better able to believe Him for the greater things.

For those who think I was being callous and cold hearted, I did so intentionally. I did so to evoke a response, and I got exactly the response I was looking for.

The responses I got proves my point. Whether you believe in God or not, we all share one common belief that contradicts natural selection in our society. Life has value.

So now we all agree that life has value, we have to ask ourselves another question.

What gives life it's value?

quote:

The responses I got proves my point. Whether you believe in God or not, we all share one common belief that contradicts natural selection in our society. Life has value.

Nash, what in the living hangnail are you blathering about? That makes no sense at all.

quote:

Nash, what in the living hangnail are you blathering about? That makes no sense at all.

Where are you getting confused?

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

The responses I got proves my point. Whether you believe in God or not, we all share one common belief that contradicts natural selection in our society. Life has value.

Nash, what in the living hangnail are you blathering about? That makes no sense at all.

No doubt.

My childhood hero Evel Knievel wouldn't have attempted that jump.

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
For those who think I was being callous and cold hearted, I did so intentionally. I did so to evoke a response, and I got exactly the response I was looking for.

The responses I got proves my point. Whether you believe in God or not, we all share one common belief that contradicts natural selection in our society. Life has value.

So now we all agree that life has value, we have to ask ourselves another question.

What gives life it's value?

nash, i don't agree that all life(human anyway)has value. some people are just bad and worthless. a waste of air/space in my humble opinion. do they have the right to live? you bet, until they compromise it....

quote:

nash, i don't agree that all life(human anyway)has value. some people are just bad and worthless. a waste of air/space in my humble opinion. do they have the right to live? you bet, until they compromise it....

How do those people compromise their lives? By taking the lives of others, proving life has significant value.

So what gives life such value?

quote:

The responses I got proves my point. Whether you believe in God or not, we all share one common belief that contradicts natural selection in our society. Life has value. So now we all agree that life has value, we have to ask ourselves another question. What gives life it's value?

quote:

Where are you getting confused?

You created a straw man using a non sequitur.

The straw man is that we all share a common belief that contradicts natural selection. I certainly do not share that belief. I doubt that anyone who knows the bare basics of evolution shares that belief. Killing and being killed, war, violence, has actually been shown to be a survival trait in the long run.

In any case, you then use your faulty assertion to draw a line to the supposed fact that "Life has value." This is the non sequiter. The second thought does not follow the first. I believe my life, while extremely valuable to me and people who are close to me - is no more valuable to the universe than that of a worm.

As to "what gives life its value?" Does an insect or fish "value" life? Probably not. A rodent? Perhaps. A chip or dog? Absolutely. The evolution of intelligence seems to place a high "value" on fellow live things.

Our highly evolved cerebellums get pissed when a life that had potential to better own own existence is cut short by stupidity. We get mad when a member of our tribe is killed. That is a trait of natural selection, Nash. Not some sort of silly, ill informed "proof" against it.

quote:

Our highly evolved cerebellums get pissed when a life that had potential to better own own existence is cut short by stupidity. We get mad when a member of our tribe is killed. That is a trait of natural selection, Nash. Not some sort of silly, ill informed "proof" against it.

It's not a straw man at all, your statement just a couple of sentences into your posts proves that.

That girl was not a member of your tribe. You never met her or her parents.

If she grew up, believed in God, and posted those beliefs on this forum, you would call her the same ugly names you call me and others. You've already made it clear that you feel her parents are intellectually beneath you.

As you said yourself, "Killing and being killed, war, violence, has actually been shown to be a survival trait in the long run." So when intellectually inferior people lose their offspring, to truly adhere to natural selection means that you should be happy, not pissed. It benefits the survival of the species in the long run.

Yet, like myself, you are bothered by the loss. That contradicts natural selection. Spending resources caring for the weak and sick that could otherwise go to the healthy contradicts natural selection. It does not benefit the "tribe" as a whole. So why do we do it? Because life has value. Even if it's someone we don't know and has no bearing on our own personal life, we still place value on theirs.

So at what point did we evolve to put such a value on life? Who was the first human to make that jump and why did he survive long enough to pass it on?

What gives life such value?

Nash,

With all due respect:

1.) It is a straw man;

2.) I believe you missed GF's point;

3.) You also apparently missed miami's point, one which likely tore down the entire foundation of your argument. Back up to your premise: it's false. We don't "all share" that "one common belief."

To save us all some time, I'll go ahead and tell you that whatever point you wish to make will not hold water if based on that false premise.

4.) Socrates is rolling over in his grave right now with your "What gives life such value?" refrain.

Best,
e

It is a straw man, Nash. Let me see if I can explain this another way that you can understand:

You state the following as if they were facts. According to you, each "fact" lays the foundation for the one that follows:

1: We all value life
2: This is contrary to natural selection
3: Therefore, god exists *

(* admittedly, this is an assumption because you refuse to answer your own question, "What gives value to life?" No matter your answer, is it a non sequitur (does not follow) because the previous two assertions are without merit.)

1: We do not all value life. Some of us do, others could care less in infinite degrees. Heck, even "god" places no value on human life unless said life emits the proper frequency of "belief" brainwaves.

2: This stance in no way invalidates the immeasurable evidence for the existence of natural selection.

3: Say what?

If you are going to make these assertions, you must (in a logical debate) provide a foundation for each stance. If you do not do so, you are building a straw man. One who cannot stand on his feet.

quote:

That girl was not a member of your tribe. You never met her or her parents.

I intellectually made her a member of my tribe. She was a human-anglo-saxon-American. I can relate to her demise because I am a daddy. I can easily find hate in my heart towards the members of my tribe who committed an injustice against the tribe. Such injustice contributes to (or detracts form) the viability of the tribe. This is very clearly a example of natural selection and evolutionary psychology. For you to hold this out as some wild-ass example of the existence of Yahweh is beyond irrational.

quote:

So at what point did we evolve to put such a value on life? Who was the first human to make that jump and why did he survive long enough to pass it on? What gives life such value?

Ya know, I've come to expect you to not answer the difficult questions. I have told you why this is not a valid question yet you still persist. You won't even answer your own freaking question.

Answer your question, Nash. What gives life value?

quote:

You state the following as if they were facts. According to you, each "fact" lays the foundation for the one that follows:

1: We all value life
2: This is contrary to natural selection
3: Therefore, god exists *

No, you're not getting it. You're jumping to conclusions and missing the point completely. That's why this is mistakenly viewed as a straw man argument.

Natural selection cannot account for the fact that humans (the majority of us with a conscious) place value on life. It explains why we value our own life, the lives of our family, but not the lives of random strangers. It does not account for why we spend resources to care for the weaker of our species where other species will eliminate the weaker members. It does not account for why someone would risk their lives to save the life of a stranger. Yet, some give it as the only answer to every question about the human existence.

I posed the question to see how others answer. Looking at the situation that started this thread caused me to analyze things a little deeper. I'm trying to encourage others to look deeper as well.

So I'll ask the question again, what gives life it's value?