quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:

Maybe they didn't lose. Maybe it was "God's plan", "God's Will", or a "Test of Faith" for the couple. Let's ask those people that have the direct line to God. It will be interesting to see what God tells these people.

I do have a "mainline" to talk to God, but it isn't for us to understand why here on earth but to know and believe that everything happens for a reason and that this little girl is better off.

Her parents made a very bad decision, in my opinion. Part of why I can't deny there is a God isn't just the oceans and the trees, but the ability of Doctors to find cures and treatments for many of the diseases we have in our society. That science is there because of God ... I like Nash's answer -- I gave you all the outs you needed, but you didn't take them...These parents should be held accountable for their INACTION.

GoFish -- I have no doubt this little girl is in a better place and is much happier looking down at this point...so while I question the reason for her death, I don't question the sovereignty of the timing...her death was for a reason...the obvious being not to deny a child medical treatment, but the underlying one of grace for every need...

First let me say that I am a christian and I do believe in the power of prayer but God instilled within in us "COMMON SENSE". I have seen prayer change lives as I am sure many of you have but the BIBLE also speaks of "Talents". I for one feel that people in the medical field, Doctors, Nurses, Physical therapists, CNA's are blessed with a wonderful talent/gift from God. He gave them that particular talent to save lives and help others. It sounds to me like these parents only followed part of God's word and as a result their child paid with her life. This is a tragic story and it breaks my heart but ignorance is ignorance and I'd say this fits the description. It would be interesting to know if the parents themselves were ever seen by a Physician or what their past medical history was. God gives us children as a gift from Heaven, for us to love, guide and care for. I understand that everyone has their own beliefs and people interpret the Bibile in different ways, but this was wrong.

Very well said "toonice"...people automatically want to jump on the parents religious beliefs -- they need to be jumping on the parents for their stupidity...

Thanks DixieChik. Hope everybody have a great day!!!

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
they won't, tac.

Killing one's kids for religious purposes in America has traditionally been treated lightly. Biblical precedent, you know.

DF


Leave it to you to make an idiotic statement like this....It amazes me how much sense you make in political discussions yet so make such absurd statements anytime God is brought up.
This wasn't killing one's kids for religious purposes...it was two idiotic people who made a grave error in judgement. No need to make it more than what it was on their part because it takes away from the tradgedy of this girl's death.

"Remember, it's not a lie if YOU believe it" George Costanza

Peter, the little girl could have easily been saved, but her parents sacrificed her for their religion. I do not see the controversy in this statement.

Religion is the operative word here. A Baptist or Muslim family would have gotten her help.

Grave error in judgment? That's the idiotic statement. They didn't make an error in judgment, unless you count believing in the Stone Age nonsense of prayer-healing. They murdered that child for their religion.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DixieChik:
Very well said "toonice"...people automatically want to jump on the parents religious beliefs -- they need to be jumping on the parents for their stupidity...

There's a difference?

quote:

Originally posted by fineazell1:

quote:

Originally posted by DixieChik:
Very well said "toonice"...people automatically want to jump on the parents religious beliefs -- they need to be jumping on the parents for their stupidity...

There's a difference?

Yes there is a difference. It is a fine line, but there is a difference. I think polygamy is wrong in every way, but it is the way some people choose to believe. When they get arrested for molesting a child and calling it "marriage" -- that is stupidity.

It is ultimately up to the parents to act in the best interest of the child. I would have to ask how long they have held these religious beliefs, what church do they attend and then check to see if they have sought medical treatment before. If they are educated people who have been treated by a doctor before -- then they are stupid. If they are just backwards people that are not educated except by their "church" then that explains the situation better.


Everyone is wanting to hang them up by their religious beliefs -- ultimately, the beliefs are their excuse, but stupidity or depraved indifference is what we should be beating them over the head with instead...

quote:

Originally posted by miamizsun:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:

quote:

Originally posted by miamizsun:
These were/are people, parents of perfect faith.

What supersedes what here? The faith and laws of their god? Or the laws of common sense and modern man?
Exactly what law are you referring to? I'm unaware of one that forbids the use of modern medicine. Luke, as in The Gospel according to, was a doctor.

If you are a person of faith, real faith, how could you pass judgment? They prayed about this and left it in god's hands, and he chose to take her earthly life.
Whatever, miami. So when the Samaritan took pity on a man who'd been attacked, bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine, took him to an inn & took care of him, what Jesus meant to say was the Samaritan told the guy medical care was not needed. He just needed to pray harder.

Isn't she better off in heaven? No more suffering for her, land of milk and honey, streets of gold.
Her life was not their's to take. Besides the fact that God would never tell them to let this child die, she has or at least SHOULD have the right to life in this country.

How can you, if you really believe in this god and heaven, argue with this?
Easy. I just did.

The father, a former police officer, sworn to uphold man's law, chose to go with faith in the almighty....

Were he and his wife wrong to believe that their god would save their child's life?
No, but neglecting to get the child help when they knew full well it was available was extremely wrong.

Or even that their god could save their child's life?
Same answer as above.

And they've got three other children....I hope that they don't need medical attention....
I hope they are taken from these two & given to someone with enough sense to raise them.

Joy, first, we should ask:

What would cause a person or persons to think like this?

From the article:

"The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors."

Where would they get such divine guidance?

We can start with these:

1.Health and healing come from The Lord God.

OT=Ex. 15:26; Deut. 7:15; Psalm 30:2-3; 103:2-3; 147:3; Is. 30:26; 35:4-6; 53:5; 57:18-19; Jer. 17:14; 30:17; 33:6; Hosea 6:1
NT=Matt.4:23-24; 8:16-17; 9:35; 10:1,8; 12:15; 15:30-31; Luke 4:18; 5:15; 9:6,11; Acts 3:1-3,6-8; 9:33-34

2.It is obedience to God's law that brings health and healing.

OT=Ex. 15:26; 23:25; II Chron. 7:14; Prov. 3:1-8; 4:20-22

I'll be happy to go and post the exact scripture/biblical law if you like....

Between Jesus and his disciples they were constantly healing the sick and reviving the dead, etc, etc...

The usual tricks of the day left quite an impression on folks, in fact so much that the stories, even now, in today's educated and modern society gives cause to ignorant and unnecessary death.

I'm sorry, miami. I somehow missed page two of this thread.

I'm glad you included that quote from the article because I had missed that. It actually makes me feel a little better knowing that she's not being taught this twisted view in a church.

Her twisted view of what the Bible says is a reflection of a twisted mind, not a reflection of what the Bible teaches. In order to interpret the Bible to say that seeking medical attention is forbidden, she would have to 1) take scripture out of context or 2) ignore scriptures such as the one I referred to (Good Samaritan). This means she is in Biblical error. It also means she's likely nuts.

Yes, there have been cases of miraculous healing where the doctor says you will die & the person is healed instead. There are also cases where the person was prayed for and they died anyway. That was true in Bible times and it's true today.

There is no basis scripturally or logically for her choice. JMHO

God ALWAYS answers prayers -- No is still an answer...Healing is not always physical and tanglible...sometimes the best healing is to be released from ALL PAIN, ALL BURDENS, ALL STRUGGLES in Death...

However, in this case, I think the parents should have taken the Dr's advice.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:

quote:

Originally posted by miamizsun:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:

quote:

Originally posted by miamizsun:
These were/are people, parents of perfect faith.

What supersedes what here? The faith and laws of their god? Or the laws of common sense and modern man?
Exactly what law are you referring to? I'm unaware of one that forbids the use of modern medicine. Luke, as in The Gospel according to, was a doctor.

If you are a person of faith, real faith, how could you pass judgment? They prayed about this and left it in god's hands, and he chose to take her earthly life.
Whatever, miami. So when the Samaritan took pity on a man who'd been attacked, bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine, took him to an inn & took care of him, what Jesus meant to say was the Samaritan told the guy medical care was not needed. He just needed to pray harder.

Isn't she better off in heaven? No more suffering for her, land of milk and honey, streets of gold.
Her life was not their's to take. Besides the fact that God would never tell them to let this child die, she has or at least SHOULD have the right to life in this country.

How can you, if you really believe in this god and heaven, argue with this?
Easy. I just did.

The father, a former police officer, sworn to uphold man's law, chose to go with faith in the almighty....

Were he and his wife wrong to believe that their god would save their child's life?
No, but neglecting to get the child help when they knew full well it was available was extremely wrong.

Or even that their god could save their child's life?
Same answer as above.

And they've got three other children....I hope that they don't need medical attention....
I hope they are taken from these two & given to someone with enough sense to raise them.

Joy, first, we should ask:

What would cause a person or persons to think like this?

From the article:

"The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors."

Where would they get such divine guidance?

We can start with these:

1.Health and healing come from The Lord God.

OT=Ex. 15:26; Deut. 7:15; Psalm 30:2-3; 103:2-3; 147:3; Is. 30:26; 35:4-6; 53:5; 57:18-19; Jer. 17:14; 30:17; 33:6; Hosea 6:1
NT=Matt.4:23-24; 8:16-17; 9:35; 10:1,8; 12:15; 15:30-31; Luke 4:18; 5:15; 9:6,11; Acts 3:1-3,6-8; 9:33-34

2.It is obedience to God's law that brings health and healing.

OT=Ex. 15:26; 23:25; II Chron. 7:14; Prov. 3:1-8; 4:20-22

I'll be happy to go and post the exact scripture/biblical law if you like....

Between Jesus and his disciples they were constantly healing the sick and reviving the dead, etc, etc...

The usual tricks of the day left quite an impression on folks, in fact so much that the stories, even now, in today's educated and modern society gives cause to ignorant and unnecessary death.

I'm sorry, miami. I somehow missed page two of this thread.

I'm glad you included that quote from the article because I had missed that. It actually makes me feel a little better knowing that she's not being taught this twisted view in a church.

Her twisted view of what the Bible says is a reflection of a twisted mind, not a reflection of what the Bible teaches. In order to interpret the Bible to say that seeking medical attention is forbidden, she would have to 1) take scripture out of context or 2) ignore scriptures such as the one I referred to (Good Samaritan). This means she is in Biblical error. It also means she's likely nuts.

Yes, there have been cases of miraculous healing where the doctor says you will die & the person is healed instead. There are also cases where the person was prayed for and they died anyway. That was true in Bible times and it's true today.

There is no basis scripturally or logically for her choice. JMHO

Just like I said earlier, Joy, too many people cherry pick the verses in the Bible so that they will fit with whatever agenda they have going, whether it is in a simply misguided manner or for evil intent. I don't think the latter is the case here. I think these two people are twisted in their thinking and therefore, they have cherry picked and twisted what the Bible says about medical treatment and seeking earthly help through doctors, hospitals, etc. As DixieChik and toonice have both pointed out, God gave us medical science and He gifted certain people with a natural aptitude or "talent" for healing. It is up to us to use the brains and good sense God also bestowed to seek out and utilize those people when we need them.

It might be easier for some on this forum to know the correct angle of attack on these parents if we removed "religion" and replaced it with "firearm". Like the news story I heard this morning about a deputy sheriff's young son who managed to get his little hands on his father's service weapon and ended up shooting and killing himself. The father will now likely face criminal prosecution for this. We don't blame the child's death on his father's occupation, or the fact that he carried a firearm in the execution of his duties, or even that he brought that firearm home with him, as all sworn LEOs do. We fault the father and hold him accountable for his carelessness and for not exercising good sense by leaving his weapon where his young son could find it. There was no evil intent, just a stupid, careless, thoughtless mistake...but a mistake in judgement that cost this little boy his life and will likely cost this man his freedom.

Just as there are thousands upon thousands of LEOs whose children never get their hands on their parent's guns, there are millions of religious people (not just Christians) who routinely seek out medical aid for themselves and their children.

These parents, like the deputy, made a stupid, careless, thoughtless mistake. They denied their daughter access to readily available medical care. It's not God's fault or Christianity's fault or a good reason to bash religious people! If we're going to blame her death on anything and hold the parents accountable (and prosecutable) for anything, it has to be their poor judgement and lack of good sense, NOT their faith, however misguided it was.

Dixie:

I'm so happy for you that you have a mainline to God. I think you must be getting some static, though.

Didn't Abraham and Moses have multiple wives? How could polygamy be wrong?

Funny, okay not so funny, this couple had a mainline to God, too. That God is a funny, okay not so funny, guy. Can't seem to make up his mind.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

quote:

We cannot even begin to understand Gods plan.

Sure you can. You can understand from his "word" that medicine is evil.

The very pinnacle of weak, special pleading is when y'all go into detail about what god wants, replete with bible verses to back you up. Then, when god's negligence is abundantly evident, as in the case of this poor little girl, he's much too mysterious to comprehend.

This little girl was a victim of a fairy tale. It's just that simple. She could be alive right now, feeding cookies to a teddy bear, learning multiplication tables, except her parents chose to believe a primitive superstition.

And you guys think atheists are the weird ones.

DF

Hey Goob, Im not talking about the "plan" for tomorrow or even in our lifetime. I am talking about the Big Plan. This earth is not it. If you think it is then Party on. Why does it bother you so much for someone to be at peace and beleive differently than you? I dont agree with these parents, already said so. I believe God blessed Doctors with talents and the minds to learn, study and heal the sick. We are all given special talents and we need to use the common sense God gave us to take advantage of that. It doesnt make me mad that you dont beleive in God. I am not going to argue with you or get mad thinking I will change your mind. As Edbama said.........we all do not fit into a neat little box.

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Didn't Abraham and Moses have multiple wives? How could polygamy be wrong?

This is my take on that, which could be wrong of course...God's original plan was one man and one woman - "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife (not wives); and they shall become one flesh." We also know Solomon broke the rules of Deuteronomy 17:14-20 with his "many wives".

This is pure opinion...I think God allowed multiple wives so that the women of that time would be provided for. Their choices otherwise were slavery, prostitution, starving to death, etc. Since it is no longer necessary as we can take care of ourselves, the original plan of one man and one woman is obviously the best one.

Plus, I know having more than one husband would be a nightmare for me personally. I assume men, if they think past the bedroom , would feel the same.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
I assume men, if they think past the bedroom , would feel the same.

But many of us don't. So we don't.

quote:

Hey Goob, Im not talking about the "plan" for tomorrow or even in our lifetime. I am talking about the Big Plan.

Cool, Barney, tell me about god's Big Plan. I'm all ears. You seem to know all about it, this oughtta be good.

quote:

We are all given special talents and we need to use the common sense God gave us to take advantage of that.

How about enough common sense to get a sick child the simple medicine she needs not to freaking die?

quote:

Why does it bother you so much for someone to be at peace and beleive differently than you?

As a general rule, it does not, but when children die needlessly because their parents are at peace with watching them do so needlessly, well, I get just the slightest bit impatient with those "parents".

DF