quote:

Originally posted by Rolltideroll02:
Its a very dangerous thing to question the power of GOD.

Exactly. The parents who killed the little girl were very faithful to that notion, weren't they?

quote:

However, when we apply our common sense and intelligence to ancient religious beliefs, we see right through it.

We as christians see right through islam and every other religion. We immediately laugh and realize how ridiculous the claims of islam are, yet we will not look into the mirror and apply the same standards to ourselves.

Why?

I have applied the same standard to myself, that's why I've rejected the fundamentalist church I grew up in. It's also why I rejected naturalism.

Mohammad claimed to be a messenger of God, yet when he died, he stayed dead. His body is lying in his tomb in Medina, Saudi Arabia. Jesus' tomb is empty and there are eyewitness accounts of him returning after His death written just a few years afterwards.

Plus, what did the apostles have to gain by spreading Christianity? They didn't get rich, they were ostracized, tortured, and several killed. If Jesus' resurrection was a hoax, then why risk torture and death for it? Peter was a coward, denying that he knew Jesus to his face to save his own skin. Yet after being tortured and threatened with death, he never denied Jesus' resurrection. If it was all a lie, he would have recanted, but he didn't. Why?

The benefit of Islam is that it's a way to subjugate and conquer others through war. Mo hammed was a warlord and claimed to be a messenger of God to hold his army together. It's said that he ascended to Heaven, but his bones are still in Medina.

So applying common sense and logic brings up more questions about Christianity, it doesn't disprove it at all. Islam doesn't stand up so well.

quote:

If you are in a car wreck and die because you were ejected, is it the car manufacturer's fault because they didn't buckle your seat belt for you?

God gave us common sense and intelligence. Those two things tell us that when our kid is sick, we take them to a doctor. People who refuse to use common sense and intelligence, just as those who refuse to buckle up, have no one to blame but themselves.

Nasher,

Your scenario does not follow. If I fail to fasten my seatbelt and I die, that is my fault. If I fail to fasten a child's seatbelt and simply put my faith in god that we will not have a wreck, it is my fault if she dies in one.


We have to protect children, the way we were protected as children. We cannot turf off that protection onto god or anyone else.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:

quote:

However, when we apply our common sense and intelligence to ancient religious beliefs, we see right through it.

We as christians see right through islam and every other religion. We immediately laugh and realize how ridiculous the claims of islam are, yet we will not look into the mirror and apply the same standards to ourselves.

Why?

I have applied the same standard to myself, that's why I've rejected the fundamentalist church I grew up in. It's also why I rejected naturalism.

Mohammad claimed to be a messenger of God, yet when he died, he stayed dead. His body is lying in his tomb in Medina, Saudi Arabia. Jesus' tomb is empty and there are eyewitness accounts of him returning after His death written just a few years afterwards.

Plus, what did the apostles have to gain by spreading Christianity? They didn't get rich, they were ostracized, tortured, and several killed. If Jesus' resurrection was a hoax, then why risk torture and death for it? Peter was a coward, denying that he knew Jesus to his face to save his own skin. Yet after being tortured and threatened with death, he never denied Jesus' resurrection. If it was all a lie, he would have recanted, but he didn't. Why?

The benefit of Islam is that it's a way to subjugate and conquer others through war. Mo hammed was a warlord and claimed to be a messenger of God to hold his army together. It's said that he ascended to Heaven, but his bones are still in Medina.

So applying common sense and logic brings up more questions about Christianity, it doesn't disprove it at all. Islam doesn't stand up so well.

So do you believe all of the miracles mentioned in the bible?

I guess I will always be surprised at the ability of christians to continuously make excuses for a god that does absolutely NOTHING in the way saving children from harm. Makes no sense to me how ANYBODY can worship and praise a god that makes no attempt to shelter those that serve him from harm. It is all in his plan, god knows everything, god knew this little girl's parents were going to let her die, god knows ahead of time about every child that will be hurt, mamed, or murdered. Yet you still make excuses for him.

I just can't figure out for the life of me why you would serve a god that cares nothing about your earthly being. A god that only stands to gain yet offers nothing (heaven is just a place for you to continue to worship HIM). As far as you and I, I get the same blessings, NON-protection from harm, and ultimately the same ending (death) as every christian in the world. I don't blame god for this little girl's death, I blame the belief in a helpful god for this little girl's death.

And yes, I get a little angry when I think about how sincerely christians defend their god even when the belief that he would help is a major reason a child died.

I've explained this before. When it falls on spiritually deaf ears, it doesn't usually work. I don't mean that as insulting. I can't think of a better way to say it. You possibly don't want to hear me as well. I also don't have all the answers.

When God placed the original inhabitants on earth, there was no death, disease, childbirth pains (I'm so gonna have a talk with Eve - jk), sickness, etc. When mankind sinned, all of those things entered the world. It then became a part of existence here.

I don't find promises of a perfect life in the Bible. I find quite the opposite. Ask the 12 disciples how easy the Christian life is. God does promise to never leave me or forsake me. He has kept that promise to me. I've had wonderful times & I've had tough times. He celebrated the good times with me & gave me everything I needed to make it through the tough times.

miami, got my knickers in a twist for a minute there, but I calmed down.

Joy,

didn't Jesus come to absolve us of original sin?

And if it's a matter of accepting him, why do women still experience childbirth pain, for example?
DF

Deep, this is just my opinion & understanding. I always feel a little inadequate to answer the big questions because the more I learn, the more I know how much I don't know. Anyhoo...

He paid the price for our sins & if we accept that, can be reconciled with God spiritually, but people still sin & what has became part of our existence due to sin still exists on earth. We won't receive our perfect bodies until we go to Heaven.

Joy,

It's ok to feel inadequate to answer the big questions. I can't answer them either. None of us can.

What bugs me is when people say they have those answers for the "good" big questions, then defer to mystery and ignorance for the more troubling big questions. Either they freakin' know, or they don't. I suspect they don't, and I resent being lied to.

DF

I can understand that. I feel the same way. Dang, you type fast.

Okay, that was five minutes...just seemed shorter. BTW, just in case God's listening, I'd prefer my perfect body topped with flaming red hair...you know, just in case we have the option.

quote:

Originally posted by fineazell1:

Most "Christians" have ZERO understanding, hence the reason this innocent little girl died while your "god" sat idle and did nothing. What a great god you have.

Once again, another so-called athiest that knows nothing about God. Please, if you are going to debate against something you must know what you are talking about. God created us with decision making abilities....if God intervined in our decisions to fix our mistakes, then we'd be robots under His control at all times. It is clearly stated in the Bible, whether you believe it's true or not, that we choose our path. Unfortunately these two idiots chose the wrong road and it seems as if their daughter died because of their idiocy. Once again, NOTHING to do with God.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
Oh? What gives you the right to question their religion convictions, Rielly? I assert that these parents have more "belief," more conviction in their pinky than you do in your sizable cerebellum.

The bible itself rewards the sacrifice of children in the name of god. Do I need to remind you of Abraham's attempted sacrifice of his own child by eviscerating the little boy with a rough stone tool.

How do you know that god didn't call these parents to do this same thing? What gives you the right to condemn these poor parents for their sacrifice to god?

I don't even know where to start with the ignorance spewing from your brain to your keyboard...ultimately burning my eyes.
Once again....ZERO understanding of God and the Bible. First off, did Abraham kill Isaac??? Read the whole story, maybe...MAYBE you'll understand. It wasn't about Abraham sacraficing Isaac...It was about Abraham proving his faith in God to provide....and guess what, God did.
Secondly this is story of God testing the faith of one of the most important men ever to walk the earth. A faith that had proven shakey in the past if you know the story. These two idiots had faith without common sense. The entire time Abraham and Isaac were walking to the alter Isaac was asking where the sacrafice was, Abraham answered saying that God would provide. The provision was there for these parents and they were to stupid to take it. If Abraham would've ignored the Ram and killed Isaac then he would've been just as stupid as these two.
Also, this is from the old testament. God intervined in the world then to some degree in different situations. And yes, God spoke directly to some people then. However, when Jesus(God in human form), lived, died, resurected, and accended to Heaven....that was it. It was laid out for us then. Faith and Choice of humans was all that was left. If someone jumps off the roof of a 90 story building, no matter how much faith they pray with, God will not catch them. Doesnt mean He wants them to die, just means he doesnt intervine in the earth anymore, nor will he until the return of Jesus.

quote:

Originally posted by toonice:
Peter, I would like to address some of the statements you made. Mainly about GOD being neglegent. First of all everything that happens is for a reason. From the day we are born we are a day closer to death. 2nd God knew the exact time that this child would be called home to be with him, he knew the moment she entered this world. Did you ever stop to think instead of saying God is neglegent, maybe he was saving her from pain and heartache later in life that she would have been unable to handle? GOD LOVES HIS CHILDREN AND YES GOD LOVES SINNERS AND ATHIEST. The parents made a huge mistake and I do not agree with their decision at all but to say that all of this is GOD's fault is ridiculious!! God gives each of us a mind, a spirit and a soul and he gives us common sense. It is then up to us as to how we use these, either for his good or for evil. And as far as God goes he is not a supersitition, he is however a TRUE AND LIVING GOD and one day you will learn that for yourself when you stand face to face with him.

I think you misread....I don't believe God is neglegent. We're on the same side on this one...you must've read the quote of "GoFish" or "DeepFat" within my post..... but I'm not mad at ya ;>

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
Joy, Peter,
How can you honestly tell a small child her age that god loves that child when he wouldn't lift a finger to save her from a slow, painful, degenerative death? All god had to do is show himself to the parents and say "Stop it". But, no.
Here's a parable. Two 6 year old children are torturing a kitten to death. Peter Reilly comes upon them, and even though he loves the children, he's a bit put out with them. He tells them to stop, and because they recognize his authority, they stop. The children do not understand why their fun was halted; they cannot know yet, their development is too young. The even more innocent kitten lives, due to Peter's merely saying that it should.

Would Peter have demonstrated cruelty by not saving the kitten?

DF

I appreciate being the lead in your parable there Deep lol.
But to answer your question...God created us as free thinking, decision making individuals. We are the top of the food chain...the rulers of this earth. We have near limitless possibilities in terms of gaining intelegence. We should also use common sense in our decision making. To pray that a child be healed is great, fantastic...it's meant to be a "peace pill" so to speak. To give comfort that everthing is going to be ok. However, "lazy" prayer is not only idiotic, it's un-Godly. When David killed Golioth, he didn't just pray for God to help him, then just chill by the river side now did he? No. He was proactive with his prayer. These two idiots were not.
Every lesson to be learned from the Bible about prayer shows the person praying, also working towards that solution. Prayer is a guide, a peace that God's will be done. A promise that nothing is so emotionally damaging we can't handle it. A prayer is not a guarantee that everything will turn out just how we want it(See Jesus' prayer before his crusifixion). If Jesus can pray to have the cross taken from Him if it be God's will, and not get that prayer answered then that's probably a pretty good tell that we will pray for things that do not come to pass....dontcha think?
So please, once again, any atheist that is not at least somewhat knowledgeable of God and the Bible....do yourself a favor and just...don't talk about it. You make yourselves look ridiculous.